1 Corinthians 11:11-20

[BlessedinHim]

1 Corinthians 11:11-20 (New American Standard Bible)
11However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.

12For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and (A)all things originate (B)from God.

13(C)Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

14Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him,

15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

16But if one is inclined to be contentious, (D)we have no other practice, nor have (E)the churches of God.
17But in giving this instruction, (F)I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that (G)divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

19For there (H)must also be factions among you, (I)so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,


1 Corinthians 11:11-20 (New International Version)

11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.


1 Corinthians 11:11-20 (New King James Version)


11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her[a] for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

What does the bold verse mean to the verse above it?

[Hootmon]

IMO, you are including the end of the previous thought in your Scripture quotes. The 'However' part belongs to the Scriptures above it.

Here is how I would divide it...

Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
(1Co 11:13-16 KJV)

The paticular assembly being addressed are being told that the entire Church does not have any 'custom' that applies to those issues, and that the paticular assembly are to judge for themselves.

Here is the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) rendering...

Decide for yourselves: is it appropriate for a woman to pray to God when she is unveiled? Doesn't the nature of things itself teach you that a man who wears his hair long degrades himself? But a woman who wears her hair long enhances her appearance, because her hair has been given to her as a covering. However, if anyone wants to argue about it, the fact remains that we have no such custom, nor do the Messianic communities of God.
(1Co 11:13-16)

[BlessedinHim]

IMO, you are including the end of the previous thought in your Scripture quotes. The 'However' part belongs to the Scriptures above it.

Here is how I would divide it...

Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
(1Co 11:13-16 KJV)

The paticular assembly being addressed are being told that the entire Church does not have any 'custom' that applies to those issues, and that the paticular assembly are to judge for themselves.

Here is the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) rendering...

Decide for yourselves: is it appropriate for a woman to pray to God when she is unveiled? Doesn't the nature of things itself teach you that a man who wears his hair long degrades himself? But a woman who wears her hair long enhances her appearance, because her hair has been given to her as a covering. However, if anyone wants to argue about it, the fact remains that we have no such custom, nor do the Messianic communities of God.
(1Co 11:13-16)

Thank you, is this CJB a better render of the word? I hadnt heard of this version before. The versions I sited seem to say one thing and then another. Like this is the only custom we have, or we have no custom as this.

I hadnt fully studied out this point in scripture before, just always took the verse later to mean,that if it caused a quarrel or grief, then let it go. That apparently this point is not important. I really think the Lord just wants the women to look like women and men to look like men. and look respectable. I think that is the principle of the verses about men and women and how they look.

But, I want to see what does the whole bible have to say about this.

[Hootmon]

Thank you, is this CJB a better render of the word? I hadnt heard of this version before. Not 'better', as such. Its a partial-paraphrase that takes Jewish idiom into account. I just find it is clearer sometimes, especially when it comes to the customs of the times.


The versions I sited seem to say one thing and then another. Like this is the only custom we have, or we have no custom as this. That's why I used it to help answer your question. Hopefully it was helpful to you.


I hadnt fully studied out this point in scripture before, just always took the verse later to mean,that if it caused a quarrel or grief, then let it go. That apparently this point is not important. I really think the Lord just wants the women to look like women and men to look like men. and look respectable. I think that is the principle of the verses about men and women and how they look. I agree with that assessment.

It wasnt an important issue from a Church-wide perspective, and that the individual communities were to 'judge for themselves' in a way that avoided argument.


But, I want to see what does the whole bible have to say about this.Of course... :):

[BlessedinHim]

Where in nature does it teach these things?

It says doesnt nature teach you.....

I must have missed that lesson, because I dont get that.

I just think men should look like men, and women should look like women.

[kenod]

Where in nature does it teach these things?

It says doesnt nature teach you.....

I must have missed that lesson, because I dont get that.

I just think men should look like men, and women should look like women.

This can be a 'contentious' subject. I found it very interesting to look into the history of women cutting their hair - it only started in the 20th century, and then it was mainly women who were not good examples of Christian behaviour. Is it possible they had it wrong for thousands of years and we've got it right in the last 100?

I believe it is tied in with women being in subjection to their husbands (1 Peter 3:1; Titus 2:5) - long hair and obeying both seem to have disappeared, don't they?

1 Cor 11:8-10 (NIV)
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
For this reason, and because of the angels,
the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

I believe the woman represents the Bride of Christ (the Church) and the man represents Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:30-33). The Church must be subject to Christ's authority and headship. I believe long hair is significant because of its symbolism. It is interesting that Paul continues on (in 1 Cor 11) to speak of some other very important symbols: the bread and the wine.

[BlessedinHim]

This can be a 'contentious' subject. I found it very interesting to look into the history of women cutting their hair - it only started in the 20th century, and then it was mainly women who were not good examples of Christian behaviour. Is it possible they had it wrong for thousands of years and we've got it right in the last 100?

I believe it is tied in with women being in subjection to their husbands (1 Peter 3:1; Titus 2:5) - long hair and obeying both seem to have disappeared, don't they?

1 Cor 11:8-10 (NIV)
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;
neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
For this reason, and because of the angels,
the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

I believe the woman represents the Bride of Christ (the Church) and the man represents Jesus Christ. The Church must be subject to Christ's authority and headship. I believe long hair is significant because of its symbolism. It is interesting that Paul continues on (in chapter 11) to speak of some other very important symbols: the bread and the wine.

If it helps any, I am not a women libber. LOL I dont want a woman president, either. that is scary.

and you are right about wives not submitting to their husbands for the most part, doesnt happen much, but there are a lot of men that are not submitting to the Lord, either. That may just be a sign of the times.

I am very fortunate, I have a dh who is submitted to the Lord and I have no problem submitting to my husband. I would say we have a biblical marriage. We both love the Lord and want to please Him. Cant say we please Him in all things, because we make dumb choices at times, almost every day, in some matter or another. We treat each other with respect and dignity, love each other as we are, and it is great to be accepted as I am.

Back to head covering: Why do the jewish men cover their heads with that special thing they use. I dont know what it is called. It is usually blue and white, and that skull covering, is that a yarmulke? or something like that? You can laugh if I have it really wrong there. LOL

[Jany]

Why is a woman President scary? Now, Hillary would be scary, but look, England had a Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, who did a wonderful job <><

[kenod]

Why do the jewish men cover their heads with that special thing they use. I dont know what it is called. It is usually blue and white, and that skull covering, is that a yarmulke? or something like that? You can laugh if I have it really wrong there. LOL

I thought this was interesting:

yarmulke (Yiddish); kippah (Hebrew)

"The Talmud says that the purpose of wearing a kippah is to remind us of God, who is the Higher Authority "above us" (Kiddushin 31a). External actions create internal awareness; wearing a symbolic, tangible "something above us" reinforces that idea that God is always watching. The kippah is a means to draw out one's inner sense of respect for God.

The Yiddish word for head covering, "yarmulke," comes from the Aramaic, yira malka, which means "awe of the King."

In Hebrew, the head covering is called "kippah" -- literally "dome."

A Blessing On Your Head (http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Kippah_A_Blessing_On_Your_Head.asp)

[BlessedinHim]

Why is a woman President scary? Now, Hillary would be scary, but look, England had a Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, who did a wonderful job <><

She was past menopause.