Jacob and his divination bowl...

[Octopus]

Hi all,

Mentioned in the Bible...on Joseph's divination bowl (cant remember the exact verse...It somewhere in the Joseph met his brothers part).

Can anyone here shed light on why Joseph practiced divination? I thought God forbade the practice?

Please advise

Thank you

[Miss Molly]

I believe the Scripture you are referring to is found in Genesis chapter 44. While it says that Joseph uses the cup for divination, remember that this is before the Jews were given specific instruction to avoid such practices. Joseph was in Egypt and Egypt is a type for the world. It is very possible he is practicing this pagan rite.

Also, it's not Joseph who calls the cup his divination cup it is his Egyptian servant. This servant may have assumed that Joseph's spiritual insights were gained in the Egyptian ways. :hat

[icebear]

:scratch.... if there is something like that... i totally missed it...


i will be interested to see what anyone else says...

there is this:
Gen 44:2 And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken.


but it was just a beverage cup AFAIK, if it was anything else i totally missed the allusion....

[icebear]

I believe the Scripture you are referring to is found in Genesis chapter 44. While it says that Joseph uses the cup for divination, remember that this is before the Jews were given specific instruction to avoid such practices. Joseph was in Egypt and Egypt is a type for the world. It is very possible he is practicing this pagan rite.

Also, it's not Joseph who calls the cup his divination cup it is his Egyptian servant. This servant may have assumed that Joseph's spiritual insights were gained in the Egyptian ways. :hat


ahhh...

Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.


was he divining spiritual (occultic, sorcery etc) things or was he divining the intent of his brothers by setting it as a trap to see if they had changed?

divineth
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
naw-khash'
A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate: - X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.

[Octopus]

Just as an additional note, I read it from my NIV Bible :D

It clearly stated divination...bowl or cup i cant remember.

Thanks :D

[Hootmon]

Gen 44:5

(AMP) Is it not my master's drinking cup with which he divines [the future]? You have done wrong in doing this.

(ASV) Is not this that in which my lord drinketh, and whereby he indeed divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

(CJB) Isn't this the goblet my lord drinks from, indeed the one he uses for divination? What you have done is evil!'"

(ESV) Is it not from this that my lord drinks, and by this that he practices divination? You have done evil in doing this.'"

(KJV) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

(MKJV) Is this not that in which my lord drinks, and by which indeed he divines? You have done evil in so doing.

(NASB) 'Is not this the one from which my lord drinks and which he indeed uses for divination? You have done wrong in doing this.'"

(NIV) Isn't this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.' "

(YLT) Is not this that with which my lord drinketh? and he observeth diligently with it; ye have done evil in that which ye have done.'
H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
BDB Definition:
1) to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to practice divination
1a2) to observe the signs or omens
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 13481348 - nahash

Derivative TWOT Number: 1348a
Derivative Transliteration: nahash
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 5173
Derivative Definition: divination.

The verb nahash is found only in the intensive stem (Piel) and is definitely related to the noun nahash meaning "divination" or "enchantment.

The first occurrence of nahash is in Gen_30:27, where Laban "learned from the omens" (JB) that Jacob's presence meant his blessing.

Both in Gen_44:5 and Gen 15 the doubly intensive form (infinitive absolute plus finite verb) occurs. There we learn that Joseph claimed for his brothers' benefit that he could "divine" with a special cup and so knew secret things such as that his brothers, still unaware of who he was, had his cup in their possession. According to 1Ki_20:33, the servants of Benhadad "took as an omen" Ahab's use of the word "brother" in reference to their king.

But divination is outlawed in Lev_19:26 and is spoken of with condemnation in 2Ki_17:17 and 2Ki_21:6 (cf. 2Ch_33:6). It is in the list of forbidden occult practices of Deu_18:10.

[Miss Molly]

Remember we are reading this in hindsight. Joseph had not seen the ten commandments and didn't have a clue who Moses was. Moses was given the law and that is where the Jews were officially told to avoid divination.

Every once in awhile something like this niggles the daylights out of me because it just makes no sense to my puny brain. Whenever I have finally figured out the answer (with a LOT of prayer!) it's always one of those golden nuggets of information the Bible offers us. Last year I was hung up on why it seemed to be Ok for Jacob to have two wives. Finally I realized it was not OK it's just what Jacob did and God used the situation to accomplish His goals. Later with the Law, God taught the Jews they were to have only one wife.

[Octopus]

Remember we are reading this in hindsight. Joseph had not seen the ten commandments and didn't have a clue who Moses was. Moses was given the law and that is where the Jews were officially told to avoid divination.

Every once in awhile something like this niggles the daylights out of me because it just makes no sense to my puny brain. Whenever I have finally figured out the answer (with a LOT of prayer!) it's always one of those golden nuggets of information the Bible offers us. Last year I was hung up on why it seemed to be Ok for Jacob to have two wives. Finally I realized it was not OK it's just what Jacob did and God used the situation to accomplish His goals. Later with the Law, God taught the Jews they were to have only one wife.

Thank you and all others for the replies, what you mentioned in red highlight makes good reasoning. :thumb :)

[Robbinson]

Thank you and all others for the replies, what you mentioned in red highlight makes good reasoning. :thumb :)

Also - recall that the context here was his hiding his true identity from his brothers and posing as an Egyptian. As divination was an Egyptian right, this could be nothing more than role playing (i.e., this doesn't mean that he actually practiced divination).

Best,

Brian

[icebear]

those points do make a lot of sense