What IS that verse??

[MidwestMama]

I did a search, and have been racking my brain, and cannot come up with it either way. :thinking I even tried searching on Bible Gateway and can't find it.

What is the verse/passage that talks about communication or technology increasing, and how people will run to and fro??

Thanks!! :)
Cris

[Miss Molly]

Are you thinking of this?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

[His Bride]

Are you thinking of this?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


That's the one I was thinking of too.

[MidwestMama]

That's the one!! :) I was even thinking it might have been in Daniel but nothing was clicking. Thank you!!

I was talking with a friend about it this morning, and trying to tell her about that one and Revelation 11:9, regarding how people all over the world can now see/hear of events in an instant.

Cris

[Obadiah]

Although I don't think that's what the verse actually means...

Let's take a look at the underlying text of Daniel 12:4b.
ve-attah daniyel setom ha-devarim va-hatom ha-sefer ad et qetz
yeshotetu rabbim ve-tirbeh ha-da'at

The first clause is relatively straightforward:
Now, you, Daniel -- close [or 'hide'] the words [or 'matters'] and seal the scroll until the time of the end.

The first verb normally means 'stop up', as in plugging a well. Interpreters disagree as to whether this is a command for Daniel to obscure the intent of the prophecy (in anticipation of its being clarified at a later date) or simply to wrap up the book, put an end to the prophecy. But the parallel command to seal the scroll seems to indicate something is hidden until a later time when someone would break the seal and 'open' the scroll.

The latter portion of the second clause is fairly clear, too: knowledge will increase or let knowledge increase (the verb can be interpreted either as an indicative or as something resembling a subjunctive/imperative).

The sticking point is the meaning of the verb shwt. Most often in the Bible it describes the action of going to and fro or going round and round, some sort of repetitive motion:
The people went around gathering [the manna]. (Numbers 11:8)
HaShem asked the Satan, where have you come from? The Satan answered HaShem, "from going to and fro throughout the earth, from walking around in it." (Job 1:7; 2:8)
Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem. (Jeremiah 5:1)
They will wander from sea to sea... they will run to and fro. (Amos 8:12)
That's where the renderings in the versions -- dash about, go here and there, go back and forth, rush here and there -- come from. Our verb sometimes includes the sense of wandering, moving around a lot without really getting much of anywhere.

Taking shwt in the above sense, most Christian interpreters I've read view this clause as a prediction of increased knowledge and travel in the end times. I suppose that's true -- scientific and other knowledge certainly has increased, and people travel today at a rate unimaginable in the ancient world -- but, in my opinion, it's completely alien to the context of the verse. Daniel's vision has already reached its climax -- the resurrection of the dead to eternal shame and eternal glory -- and the revelator is now instructing Daniel to wrap it up. It seems inappropriate to me that we would get one last ex post facto sort of prophetic tidbit at this juncture.

Fortunately, there is an alternative. While unattested in the biblical era, shwt demonstrates another meaning in postbiblical Hebrew: 'reflect, consider, analyze.' This may be related to the sense discussed above, a sort of mental or intellectual 'going to and fro' -- or maybe not. In any event, if this alternative sense can be understood in the text of Scripture -- it may be that it coexisted with 'run around' in the biblical era rather than being a subsequent derivation, and simply never made in into the biblical text -- our text yields a much more coherent sense:
Now, you, Daniel -- hide the words and seal the scroll until the time of the end.
Many will consider, and knowledge will increase. [or, 'Let many consider, and let knowledge increase.']
So the "knowledge" here is not scientific or educational knowledge but specifically the knowledge or understanding of the prophecies of Daniel. As the time draws closer, the more people study them, the more they will be understood. This works especially well if we understand the "many" here not just in a general sense but according to its use elsewhere in the text to designate the righteous remnant: "the wise among the people will instruct many... those who turn many to righteousness... many will be purified..." (11:33; 12:3; 12:10).

Just some food for thought.

[Kliska]

The sticking point is the meaning of the verb shwt. Most often in the Bible it describes the action of going to and fro or going round and round, some sort of repetitive motion:

That's where the renderings in the versions -- dash about, go here and there, go back and forth, rush here and there -- come from. Our verb sometimes includes the sense of wandering, moving around a lot without really getting much of anywhere.

Taking shwt in the above sense, most Christian interpreters I've read view this clause as a prediction of increased knowledge and travel in the end times. I suppose that's true -- scientific and other knowledge certainly has increased, and people travel today at a rate unimaginable in the ancient world -- but, in my opinion, it's completely alien to the context of the verse. Daniel's vision has already reached its climax -- the resurrection of the dead to eternal shame and eternal glory -- and the revelator is now instructing Daniel to wrap it up. It seems inappropriate to me that we would get one last ex post facto sort of prophetic tidbit at this juncture.

Fortunately, there is an alternative. While unattested in the biblical era, shwt demonstrates another meaning in postbiblical Hebrew: 'reflect, consider, analyze.' This may be related to the sense discussed above, a sort of mental or intellectual 'going to and fro' -- or maybe not. In any event, if this alternative sense can be understood in the text of Scripture -- it may be that it coexisted with 'run around' in the biblical era rather than being a subsequent derivation, and simply never made in into the biblical text -- our text yields a much more coherent sense:

So the "knowledge" here is not scientific or educational knowledge but specifically the knowledge or understanding of the prophecies of Daniel. As the time draws closer, the more people study them, the more they will be understood. This works especially well if we understand the "many" here not just in a general sense but according to its use elsewhere in the text to designate the righteous remnant: "the wise among the people will instruct many... those who turn many to righteousness... many will be purified..." (11:33; 12:3; 12:10).

Just some food for thought.

You've shown how it backs the traditional understanding, based on other scripture; actual movement to and fro...is their other scripture that backs up a "mulling over" of something with the use of that word?

[Obadiah]

Kliska:

As I said above, the context militates against the idea that this is a prediction of increased travel. The particulars of the visions are over and done; the resurrection has already taken place. Why slip in one last little prediction?

And, as I also said above, the use of the verb in reference to mental activity is not attested elsewhere in the Bible. But in light of the rather limited scope of the biblical corpus -- the Bible is actually a relatively small amount of literature for a culture to produce over the course of 1000 years or so -- it's entirely possible that the rabbinic sense actually was in use during the biblical era (especially Daniel, late in the biblical era) and just didn't happen to occur in any of the documents that made it into the Bible.

That 12:4b is an encouragement to study the text in hopes that its understanding will become clearer as the prophesied events draw closer makes lovely sense as a complement to 12:4a.

[Kliska]

As I said above, the context militates against the idea that this is a prediction of increased travel. The particulars of the visions are over and done; the resurrection has already taken place. Why slip in one last little prediction?

To me, it appears it is all one idea or thought. It doesn't seem like one last prediction apart from the sealing it up; it is an idea that flows all together. For a really :heh simplistic example, if I were in a library, I can say, "I want us all to be quiet now; this is a public place where people are trying to read and study." The rest of my sentence doesn't negate "I want us all to be quiet now." In other words, it reads to me as a completion to the thoughts/phrase expressed.

[Obadiah]

Well, I guess we're just reading it differently.

I really don't see the parallel in your library sentence. Using your same setting, I'd parallel the traditional interpretation this way:

Welcome to the library, everyone. In the first section are social science books; the second section, literature; the next section, science; the next section, theology. I hope all of you have a great time here in the library. And in the next section, history.

[Kliska]

Well, I guess we're just reading it differently.

I really don't see the parallel in your library sentence. Using your same setting, I'd parallel the traditional interpretation this way:

Welcome to the library, everyone. In the first section are social science books; the second section, literature; the next section, science; the next section, theology. I hope all of you have a great time here in the library. And in the next section, history.

From the way it is translated, even in more "direct" Hebrew, I don't see it flowing that way; there is no "period," end of sentence structure in the verse in Daniel, as in my made up example. It is a completion of thought in my thinking.

It is just two different ways of reading it. :nod