Erwin Mcmanus

[Sing4Him]

"My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ," McManus, author of a new book called "The Barbarian Way," said in a telephone interview.

"Some people are upset with me because it sounds like I'm anti-Christian. I think they might be right." Erwin McManushttp://www.christianexaminer.com/Articles/Articles%20Mar05/Art_Mar05_09.html


Erwin McManus on Mysticism

For those who may wonder just what is at the basis of McManus' spirituality, this quote by the author says it all:

The Barbarian Way [his book] was, in some sense, trying to create a volatile fuel to get people to step out and act. It's pretty hard to get a whole group of people moving together as individuals who are stepping into a more mystical, faith-oriented, dynamic kind of experience with Christ. So, I think Barbarian Way was my attempt to say, "Look, underneath what looks like invention, innovation and creativity is really a core mysticism that hears from God, and what is fueling this is something really ancient. Erwin McManus, Interview with Relevant Magazine (emphasis added)


Awakening an Apostolic Ethos with Erwin McManus, Lead Pastor, Mosaic, Los Angeles—"McManus offers a vision of the church taking its rightful place as an unstoppable force created to change the world ... a church that is active and engaged with its community An apostolic ethos is the key to a New Testament movement ... To lead a church with movement requires the ability to create and shape ethos ..." Erwin declares, "When we awaken the apostolic ethos, the heart of God begins to pulsate through the church of Jesus Christ." Consider that ethos means culture, they are wanting to change the culture, something Jesus NEVER told us to do. He said his kingdom is not of this world. We are supposed to be preparing people for the kingdom in the next by being separate from the world while we are in it." (This book has a new apostolic and Dominionist view)—From Community Connections, Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/erwinmcmanus.htm

[Sing4Him]

Book Review by Pastor Gary Gilley

The Barbarian Way
by Erwin R. McManus

Having gone to college during the hay days of the hippie movement and the Jesus Freak Revolution, I find that books like The Barbarian Way cause me a definite sense of déjà vu. In the 1960s and 70s, the Establishment was the great enemy to young mavericks (McManus would call them barbarians) and, since the church represented the Establishment, it too was seen as evil. The church needed to be dismantled, along with the rest of society, and restructured according to the then-emerging barbarian blueprint. I will let my readers decide if society in general, or the church of God in particular, is superior today as a result (you probably can guess my answer).


In the wake of the barbarian raid of the 1960s came new Christian leaders who offered creative and “improved” methods for reviving the evangelical church. Robert Girard wrote Brethren, Hang Loose; David Mains provided a new paradigm with the Circle Church in Chicago and the “church renewal” movement was in full force. All of these things have faded with time, but they spawned offspring which live today. For one, the seeker-sensitive church was given birth and that led the march to further doctrinal dilution and even the undermining of the gospel itself. The emerging church movement (of which McManus is a leader) is more recent. It has taken up where the seeker-sensitive church left off and is headed for old-fashioned liberalism.


This brings us back to McManus’ little book which has received kudos in many circles. In reality there is not much to analyze here. The book is long on inspiration and virtually non-existent on substance. It is in essence a 140 page pep rally. There is nothing wrong with pep rallies; we all need to be encouraged and challenged to step up to the opportunities afforded us by Christ. But McManus seriously overplays his hand. He is highly critical of any who do not accept his “barbarian way,” calling them domesticated, civilized Christians (p. 12) and equating them to the Pharisees and Judaism of the first century (pp. 15, 59, 114) . What McManus and his ilk miss is that Jesus never condemned the Jews for their religious system (God set most of it in place) nor for their complacency (their religious enthusiasm is everywhere evident). He condemned the Pharisees for invalidating the Word of God with their own agenda (Matthew 15:1-9) and the people for following that agenda. This would be the exact concern Jesus would have with the barbarian way. McManus and friends have great enthusiasm for their agenda—but is it God’s agenda? From The Barbarian Way it would be almost impossible to tell. McManus does not share his views on the gospel, Scripture or any doctrine of importance. He never provides details of the message or life that we are to share with others. We are simply to follow Christ (whatever that might mean) and live as savages—without rules or boundaries, except the boundary of love.


Perhaps the best example of the barbarian way that McManus supplies is found in an illustration he gives about rhinos. Rhinos, he informs us, can run at thirty miles an hour but can only see thirty feet in front of them. The term used for a number of rhinos running at full speed is appropriately called a crash. Now, most people recognize rhinos as huge, dim-witted creatures that mindlessly charge and destroy anything in their path. They do not create, they annihilate. I have never heard a parent tell his child that he hopes she will grow up and have the characteristics of a rhino—e.g. stupid, destructive, self-centered, angry. But McManus sees the rhino as the barbarian’s mascot and prime example. Speaking of the mannerisms of rhinos McManus writes, “That’s what happens when we become barbarians and shake free of domestication and civility. The church becomes a crash” (p. 138).


This is truly amazing—yet totally consistent with what McManus is promoting. The barbarian way is that of highly motivated, over-the-top entrepreneurs, each madly pursuing his vision of what God would have. To the barbarian there are no rules, all traditions and rituals are boring and must be demolished, and there is no indication, at least that I could find, that even the Bible should define or set boundaries for barbarians. What McManus is propagating is for Christians to charge full speed ahead giving no thought about what they might trample or destroy in the process.


One more note of interest: McManus opens and closes The Barbarian Way with an example of the Old Testament judge Jephthah (Judges 11:1-3). He is apparently the perfect picture of a barbarian, the likes of which we should follow. While Jephthah was a wild man, a mighty warrior and one who drew “worthless” men to his cause (11:3), there is no indication in Scripture that Jephthah actually walked with God. More importantly, in true barbarian fashion, Jephthah made a rash vow promising to sacrifice the first thing that came out of his house upon his return from a victorious battle with Ammon. As you recall, it was his only daughter who walked through that door and Jephthah the barbarian, in complete contradiction to the expressed will of God (cp. Leviticus 18:21), actually sacrificed her (Judges 11:29-40). Is this really the kind of hero we should emulate? Maybe the barbarian way is even better represented by contradicting his wife and telling his son to jump off the roof (pp. 117-119) or of men at his church retreat stripping naked to play tug-a-war (pp. 131-133). Indeed these examples are barbaric—but they are not godly.


Paul spoke of a similar people when he said of the Jews, “For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge” (Romans 10:2). This is the true barbarian way: a zeal untamed by the truth of the Word. It is not the pathway to which the Christian is called.

http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=333

[watchman]

Wonder if He and Todd Bentley pillow talk...

[Sing4Him]

Book Review by Pastor Gary Gilley

Soul Cravingsby Erwin Raphael McManus
Soul Cravings is sort of an apologetic aimed at the postmodern generation. Rather than persuade his audience with biblical proofs, scientific evidence or logical arguments, McManus has chosen a philosophical approach. His reasoning is that our souls crave three things: intimacy, destiny and meaning. The fact that all human beings have these cravings is evidence for the existence of God.


The big question is, if these cravings do point us to God, just where and how are we to find Him? The underlying theme throughout the book is that we will find Him in ourselves as we allow our cravings to lead us. In the introduction (it should be noted that McManus “creatively” does not use page numbers, rather he has 68 “entries” of various lengths) he writes, “This is not a book focused on empirical evidence for God. It is about coming to know ourselves…It is about our story; and if God exists, we should be able to find Him there.” To this end we are told to “follow love and it will guide you to God” (part 1, entry 4). Soul Cravings ends where it begins. In the conclusion we read, “All the evidence you need to prove God is waiting within you to be discovered.” And, “If you pay attention to your soul, it will guide you to God.” Again, “"]Explore nowhere else except deep within yourself…you will come face-to-face with God.”[/COLOR]:tsk:tsk

Rather than take the reader back to Scripture (which describes and points the true way to God) or to Jesus, who most fully explains Him (John 1:14, 18), McManus would have us look inside ourselves to find God. And while Romans 1 and 2 would agree that God has planted evidence of Himself within our souls, the Scriptures are equally clear that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). One of the problems with pointing people back to themselves to find God lies in the wickedness of our hearts (Jeremiah 17:9) and the inadequacy of our souls to comprehend God unaided by the Spirit using the Word. This is the fatal flaw in McManus’ system. At no point does he explain to his reader the gospel message. It is as if such information will get in the way. Rather, we follow our cravings and our cravings lead us to God. The Scriptures do not agree.


An interrelated problem found in Soul Cravings is the insistence that God’s love is unconditional. “What in the world would happen,” McManus asks, “if people actually began discovering the actual message of Jesus Christ—that love is unconditional…that Jesus was offering His love freely and without condition?” (part 1, entry 10). What does McManus mean by this? Is faith not the human condition for receiving saving grace? McManus never speaks of the cross as necessary for our atonement or redemption or for propitiation which satisfies the righteous wrath of God. Instead, the cross “is God’s declaration of love for you” (conclusion). So the cross is gutted of its full meaning and replaced with the gospel of unconditional love.:tsk

Soul Cravings has its high moments. McManus’ ability as a motivational speaker and writer are evidenced in the many inspirational stories and pep rally feel. But McManus substitutes philosophical and psychological ideas for biblical ones. In the end he succeeds in identifying the true longing of our heart (cravings) but fails to point us in the right direction. He does focus us on God, but it is the God found within our souls. He talks about Christ and the cross but reduces their meaning to nothing more than unconditional love. He does not explain man’s great problem as being sin, and his solution found only in Christ. And he does not talk to us about repentance or faith. He has opened the door in Soul Cravings to explore the true God but he has not taken his reader beyond the threshold.
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=343

[Sing4Him]

I hope the above gives a view of the "spirituality" of this apostate "pastor".

[dow]

Book Review by Pastor Gary Gilley

Soul Cravingsby Erwin Raphael McManus
Soul Cravings is sort of an apologetic aimed at the postmodern generation. Rather than persuade his audience with biblical proofs, scientific evidence or logical arguments, McManus has chosen a philosophical approach. His reasoning is that our souls crave three things: intimacy, destiny and meaning. The fact that all human beings have these cravings is evidence for the existence of God.


The big question is, if these cravings do point us to God, just where and how are we to find Him? The underlying theme throughout the book is that we will find Him in ourselves as we allow our cravings to lead us. In the introduction (it should be noted that McManus “creatively” does not use page numbers, rather he has 68 “entries” of various lengths) he writes, “This is not a book focused on empirical evidence for God. It is about coming to know ourselves…It is about our story; and if God exists, we should be able to find Him there.” To this end we are told to “follow love and it will guide you to God” (part 1, entry 4). Soul Cravings ends where it begins. In the conclusion we read, “All the evidence you need to prove God is waiting within you to be discovered.” And, “If you pay attention to your soul, it will guide you to God.” Again, “"]Explore nowhere else except deep within yourself…you will come face-to-face with God.”[/COLOR]:tsk:tsk

Rather than take the reader back to Scripture (which describes and points the true way to God) or to Jesus, who most fully explains Him (John 1:14, 18), McManus would have us look inside ourselves to find God. And while Romans 1 and 2 would agree that God has planted evidence of Himself within our souls, the Scriptures are equally clear that “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). One of the problems with pointing people back to themselves to find God lies in the wickedness of our hearts (Jeremiah 17:9) and the inadequacy of our souls to comprehend God unaided by the Spirit using the Word. This is the fatal flaw in McManus’ system. At no point does he explain to his reader the gospel message. It is as if such information will get in the way. Rather, we follow our cravings and our cravings lead us to God. The Scriptures do not agree.


An interrelated problem found in Soul Cravings is the insistence that God’s love is unconditional. “What in the world would happen,” McManus asks, “if people actually began discovering the actual message of Jesus Christ—that love is unconditional…that Jesus was offering His love freely and without condition?” (part 1, entry 10). What does McManus mean by this? Is faith not the human condition for receiving saving grace? McManus never speaks of the cross as necessary for our atonement or redemption or for propitiation which satisfies the righteous wrath of God. Instead, the cross “is God’s declaration of love for you” (conclusion). So the cross is gutted of its full meaning and replaced with the gospel of unconditional love.:tsk

Soul Cravings has its high moments. McManus’ ability as a motivational speaker and writer are evidenced in the many inspirational stories and pep rally feel. But McManus substitutes philosophical and psychological ideas for biblical ones. In the end he succeeds in identifying the true longing of our heart (cravings) but fails to point us in the right direction. He does focus us on God, but it is the God found within our souls. He talks about Christ and the cross but reduces their meaning to nothing more than unconditional love. He does not explain man’s great problem as being sin, and his solution found only in Christ. And he does not talk to us about repentance or faith. He has opened the door in Soul Cravings to explore the true God but he has not taken his reader beyond the threshold.
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=343

I just threw out this book yesterday. Never read it.
It's actually a friend's. oops!

[Sing4Him]

I just threw out this book yesterday. Never read it.
It's actually a friend's. oops!:fear

I can understand why. Maybe you could replace it with Faith Undone by Roger Oakland! :heh

[Sing4Him]

ERWIN MCMANUS: THE EMERGENT LOVE OF MAN WITHIN THE SBC

**Posted by Ken Silva, pastor-teacher at December 27, 2006 07:17 PM

Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless. With God we will gain the victory, and He will trample down our enemies... I hate and abhor falsehood but I love Your Law.
(Psalm 108:12-13; 119:163)

Salient Questions Now Have Become Emergent

The following quote is from the 2003 book The Church In Emerging Culture: Five Perspectives where Emergent theologian and panentheistic futurist Leonard Sweet serves as General Editor. This book also features Andy Crouch, Michael Horton, Eastern Orthodox panentheist Frederica Matthewes-Green, Sweet’s good friend Emergent Guru Brian McLaren and Southern Baptist Pastor, cultural architect and distinguished futurist Erwin McManus.

In the beginning each contributor offers a dedication and McManus offers his:

To my brother, Alex
So few are men of dreams, fewer still men of passion.
Yet those who change the world it seems, are both thus men of action.

I tell you in the Lord that the time has now arrived to open fire on the elevation of a love centered on man; a twisted version of Arminianism, not only in the Southern Baptist Convention, but also within the whole of evangelicalism as well as the new evangelicalism. And so here I stand. Those with eyes to see should notice the praise above for “men of dreams” who are “men of passion.” It’s far past time that someone begins to ask these Emergent architects and futurists: What exactly is it that you guys are dreaming so passionately about?

It looks to me as if we’re exalting men “who change the world” and who are “thus men of action.” But where is Jesus Christ in the above? This same bent bravado of human potential is found throughout the focused on the self work of Erwin McManus. Take for example the December 2006 issue of HOMELIFE from Lifeway Church Resources (SBC) and an article by Tobin Perry on McManus called On Mission. I’ll come back to this another time but right in the headline we’re told “Erwin McManus and his family…share a passion for God, for people, and for changing the course of human history” (19).

However as admirable a goal as this may be, considering we aren’t sure exactly what course the McManus family might have planned for this world, I’m afraid “changing the course of human history” is not what Jesus has sent His true Christians to do. I have pointed out before that the Master tells His Church – “the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost” (Luke 19:10). And after His glorious Resurrection from the dead Jesus then gives this most important mission to the Body of Christ when He says – “As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you” (John 20:21).

These self-anointed “leaders” like Erwin McManus, Rob Bell and Brian McLaren of the Emergent Church are free to wax on about their perceptions of what they think the Church should be doing but it isn’t going to change the primary mission that it was given by our Lord Himself. Above I have just shown you what God the Father’s plan is for His Church, which is then further confirmed by God the Holy Spirit through His chosen vessel the inspired Apostle Paul when we are told:

All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

The Barbarian Way Of An Emergent SBC Pastor

As we turn to Erwin McManus’ book The Barbarian Way (TBW) we will soon see that such a mundane task as simply preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ most surely isn’t big enough for the “founder of Awaken.” For it is here that “futurist and distinguished professor” McManus partners “with a team of dreamers and innovators who specialize in the field of developing and unleashing personal and organizational creativity” (back flap). Why doesn’t this almost appear to be a flashback to what could have been the autobiography of the Apostle Paul who told us:

When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

Truly uncanny how much these megachurch pastors and Emergent futurists remind one of Christ’s Apostles isn’t it? TBW also tells us that McManus is “lead pastor” of Mosaic, which “emerges as a reference point for the future” and that he is also known as “a national and international consultant, his expertise focuses on culture, change, leadership, and creativity.” Whew, one mighty impressive man this McManus is. Also author of four books I find myself wondering just where this cultural architect and futurist SBC pastor ever has time to preach the Gospel.

But this is just the point isn’t it? Exactly where is the good news of Jesus Christ in all of this ballyhoo of the self? In TBW Erwin McManus himself then asks, “So what is this good news?” Our futurist informs us:

The refined and civilized version goes something like this: Jesus died and rose from the dead so that you can live a life of endless comfort, security, and indulgence (32).
Those with any knowledge of American Christianity will recognize the basic outline of the non-gospel of the cult of the Word Faith Church as taught by false teachers and prophets like Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland. Then McManus says, “But really this is a bit too developed.” However, isn’t that just a bit disingenuous of our distinguished lecturer here when part of his own “expertise focuses on culture, change, leadership, and creativity”? Isn’t the above actually a bit like what we’d expect from McManus and his awakened “company of dreamers and innovators who specialize in the field of developing and unleashing personal and organizational creativity”?

I mean surely we wouldn’t suppose this dynamic leader and “national and international consultant” is going to come in and teach us how we can suffer and fail. McManus then goes on in TBW to tell us about another version of the good news:

Usually it’s more like this: if you’ll simply confess you that you’re a sinner and believe in Jesus you’ll be saved from the torment of eternal hellfire, then go to heaven when you die (ibid).
One can almost hear “the freakishly tall” Todd Friel of Way of the Master say: “Well, yeah. If you actually do this sincerely this is exactly what will happen to you.” And here consistent with other Emergent leaders McManus attacks the simplicity of Christ’s Gospel as apparently not being exciting enough for him. Even if we give McManus the benefit of the doubt that he is actually mocking the “easy-believism” of the old “with heads bowed and every eye closed, just raise your hand” profession of faith we still have a problem because in typical fashion for McManus he goes over the top to forge his Emergent agenda:

Either case results in our domestication. One holds out for life to begin in eternity, and the other makes a mockery of life. The call of Jesus is far more barbaric than either of these. It is a call to live in this world as citizens of an entirely different kingdom. In its primitive state the good news could never be separated from the invitation of Jesus to “come, follow Me.” He never lied about the danger or cost associated with becoming His follower (ibid.).

RePainted Emergent Liberation Theology And Its Reimagined Social Gospel

We stop now and look a few things. The way McManus talks here of “an entirely different kingdom” and “becoming His follower” is also consistent with the Emergent Church understanding of being “Christ followers” as they live in the “kingdom of God” here on earth. Remember the Devil’s lies are very subtle and there is a truth to these statements but not in the way this new cult of liberal theology defines them with their repainted liberation theology and reimagined social gospel. But at this point I also want to draw your attention to a false dichotomy McManus sets up which is also typical of Emergent leaders when he says Christians are called “to live in this world as citizens of an entirely different kingdom.”

Whoever said they weren’t? The Bible very clearly tells us – Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul (1 Peter 2:11). So as you can see the truth is there’s absolutely nothing in historic orthodox Christian theology recaptured during the Protestant Reformation which teaches that we aren’t supposed “to live in this world as citizens of an entirely different kingdom.” Nor is anyone saying “the good news could never be separated from the invitation of Jesus to ‘come, follow Me.’ ” If people don’t truly get converted, and if they are not filled with the Spirit of God, and if they just sit there on their spiritual rears and do nothing, we don’t need to then abandon proper doctrine.

No, what we need to do is to continue to preach the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ and let God the Holy Spirit convict them of their sin until they get converted or they get out of the Church (e.g.–Isaiah 6:8-10). But instead the Emergent Church has created their own man-centered–appeal to the flesh–social non-gospel because we want to sell more books and to lauded as cultural architects and futurists as we write twaddle like The Barbarian Way. Oh, and we also massively strive to become involved in “impressive” fanfare from the National Religious Broadcasters like Reach 2007 . At the website for NRB we are told that “REACH 2007 is a unique opportunity to connect with visionaries, futurists, media strategists, and producers who understand the next generation of media and recognize how it will change the world.”

So here we are once again with our mighty “visionaries,” and “futurists,” men who are going to “change the world.” O yeah for, “These are the people defining media in a postmodern culture ... the ones who are making Christian media relevant to today’s generation.” And not only that but we’ll even have the honor of being able to:

Interact with renowned media revolutionaries:
Ralph Winter – legendary producer of Star Trek, Planet of the Apes, X-Men, and Fantastic Four
Erwin McManus – visionary pastor of Mosaic, filmmaker, and best-selling author
Leonard Sweet – futurist writer who leads the church in encountering the next generation of ministry

And if all this promotion of the self isn’t enough Erwin McManus is also partnering up with Ken Blanchard in On Target Evangelism a few days after Reach 2007. But as you’ll see, “This conference [that] will give you both the motivation and tools to develop ‘On Target’ believers in your church,” is simply more man-centered hogwash. If this was actually what Gospel is all about then the Church would be filled with nothing but dreamers, innovators, leaders, futurists etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseaum...

See it for what it is; just the same tired old message of positive mind-over-matter possibility thinking made popular in evangelical circles through Norman Vincent Peale. This Emergent non-gospel of the egotism of Erwin McManus is nothing more than rehashed Leadership Network Church Growth rhetoric; some reimagined Robert Schuller, and a little dose of Rick Warren and Leonard Sweet mixed in for bad measure.
As a matter of fact both Warren and Sweet give glowing endorsements for McManus’ book An Unstoppable Force, as does Bill McCartney, Founder and President of Promise Keepers and Brad Smith, President of Leadership Network. This same Leadership Network which launched the Emergent Church in the first place. So much for Erwin Raphael Mcmanus not being Emergent. I’ve said it before: If it looks Emergent, and it does; if it acts like Emergent, and it does; and if it sounds like Emergent, and it does...then it's as Emergent as Tony Jones.

No; the truth is that Erwin McManus, who has now become the SBC’s golden poster boy for “reaching” a younger audience, is actually a leading proponent of the Emergent love of man now slithering to the surface within the SBC and McManus’ message is little more than Joel Osteen for the CEO-types on their petty “Christian” ego trips.

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/12/erwin_mcmanus_t_1.html

[Sing4Him]

Bump

[Gratefulheart]

i don't know what to think anymore. My Pastor is unbelievably passionate about reaching the lost. He has never, (that i have heard) compromised God's word. But as i mentioned before, he is bringing in Rob Bell's dust video and we are supposed to be starting a new church, based off of the inspiration he drew from Mosaic and Erwin.

Pastor grew up in a fire and brimstone, oneness pentecostal background and forsook (is that a word?lol) everything to follow God's truth.

Now 3 years later, after coming to our church, we are losing people who want to be catered to and don't want the church to be about focusing on seeking the lost. Pastor is tired and vulnerable and as a human being, pained by people leaving. In his passion to cling to the purpose of reaching out to unbelievers, he has come under the guidance of Erwin. Erwin told him that if people are leaving or getting upset, it is a good sign that we are doing things right at church. when you begin to irritate "religious" people by the truth, they are going to be weeded out.

so Bill Hybels, Erwin, Rob Bell, and Donald Miller are coming into our church. I know how I feel abou Rob Bell. He has completely twisted scripture with his universalist thinking. I am still hazy on the others. sometimes i wonder if i'm overreacting and doing what my Pastor says people can do if they're not careful: making everyone into a heretic. :(