Warning our churches? and What to tell them?

[ANewCreature]

Okay, now that I've read about the "economy collapse" predicted, I feel led to ask about something that popped into my head last night; praying thta if this feeling is of God, someone can give a clear, concise suggestion for those we may have forgotten about in all this (at least I did till now.)

Some of our churches might be small. Mine's not a megachurch, but we support 170+ missionaries (!) and have a huge budget. (I think of a megchurch as like 10,000 members. We've got maybe 2500 - Canton Baptist Temple, if anyone's curious.)

I'm not involved in the financial end, though I'm in a lot of ministries. Maybe our treasurer has taken care of all this - really wouldn't be surprised if he has, we've got a very long-time treasurer who is really great at it.

But, I care about my church, and it would be nice if jds, I'mall67x, Isachaar, or somebody would write something simple, with maybe 2-3 key links, that we could each give pastors that:
1. Doesn't sound like we're Chicken Littles; yet,
2. Explains the exact dangers to churches, especially one our size, and what to do.

As I've said, I don't know what our treasurer has done, and I haven't even eard how this is going to relate to trusts like we've got. But, even if he's done everything right and protected us as best he can, I know there are some churches out there that won't be as ready and may need to protect themselves.

I'm going to pray some more about this during the day, and if I feel led, mention it to our pastor tonight, and if he seems agreeable, e-mail him whatever one of you guys writes up tomorrow. And, you all can do whatever you want with your churches; aas I said, I haveno idea what it's going to be like for them.

[Katrina]

Talked to my paster last night for a few hours. He's a wonderful person but not sold on things getting out of hand anytime soon. I came away from the encounter with peace in my mind though. I won't share the thoughts that came to me afterwards with this forum but, God has given me a new sense of direction.

[Issachar]

1. Doesn't sound like we're Chicken Littles; yet,
2. Explains the exact dangers to churches, especially one our size, and what to do. Well ANewCreature, it somewhat depends on where the leaderships thinking is. You ask a good question here and the timing is interesting. I say that because in the last couple weeks I've been finding myself thinking about how exactly (not if) I will talk to my pastor about the potential scenerios that data is pointing to.

I sometimes find ...... well, to be fully honest, I often find, that even if one is in good standing with their local church and are accepted as a mature believer and generally listened to, when it comes to the economy, that the response is a shrug in conjunction with a "hmmm ...". Most people are still believing that "everything will be alright .... just another phase or cycle". Or, "We've heard this before and nothing happened".

So in regards to your point #1 above, speak calmly, almost matter-of-factly. Don't place a lot of emphasis on the economy but mention it as almost a "oh, by the way ..." How much emphasis is going to depend on how aware the leadership already is. Oblivious = very, very low emphasis. Well aware = go ahead, say on. Whether or not this comes across as "the sky is falling" lies with the delivery. As always with belivers, godly discernment is key.

As far as point #2 is concerned, if things get as bad as current data suggest, everyone's life will change a lot and "churches" may not be able to continue functioning as they have in the past. Many will not continue functioning as the local church they were. The answer here can be rather involved and hopefully those more knowledgable than me will contribute as it is a topic that will affect all believers. I say "functioning as they have in the past", because the church is the body of Christ and will always function. It just may be in a very different way than we are used to. The church, as a whole in the U.S. spends a lot of money on a lifestyle that isn't always necessary (trying to be polite here :) ). Should the USD become extremely valueless and even go as far as fail (hyperinflation), then we all will have much to adapt to. I often wonder what will happen to missions/missionaries. I aim to discover within my own local assembly, what, if any, preparations are at least being thought about in regards to missionaries.

LET ME EMPHASIZE THIS: ... and this goes for all of us. There is a BIG difference between WATCHING and praying and worry and fear.

Mark 13:
33 *Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Luke 21:
36 *Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Isaiah 41:
10 *¶Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

It seems to me that whenever I mention the economy to a brother in Christ, no matter how reserved, I'm met with the line "I'm not going to worry about it". My response is that I'm not going to either, but I am going to be aware. When someone tells me that they are not going to "worry about it", it tells me that they are either already worried and simply don't want to think about it or that they live in some sort of la-la land. I've always taught my children that procrastination is a marvelous way of making life's little problems go away. Eventually they grow into big problems and voila, no more little problems. It always works.

That's my initial .02 worth. :hat

Issachar

[ANewCreature]

Thanks. I guess it may, in a way, be so different that we can't fathom it, let alone be able to descibe what measures to take.

I will say this - and perhaps this is how I'll approach it - Ohio's economy has been slumping for a long while. God has kept us going; constant prayer for our air conditioning, for instance. (Technicians who have come in to fix it have commented that they don't know how it's lasted this long! Well, we know how. :pray And, it's a great witness to the technicians.)

So, given that our leadership knows that our economy is struggling even worse than normal, perhaps the best way, at least with our leadership, is to simply mention the importance of prayer and God's leading. I have a tendency to try to handle thigns myself that I should give to the Lord, and who knows, maybe I'm diong this here. But, they at least know that it *is* important to pray about things and let the Lord lead. (And, we are trying to make sure some debts get paid off, which is good. We don't have a huge number of them, and not on the important things - building, camp, etc. are all debt-free. We have some land that we have something planned for, but aim to pay it off before starting any construction, which is always wise. I think our leadership is very prudent when it comes to the economy, which helps.)

I wonder about missionaries, too; I wonder if they may have to stay on the field rather than coming home, and if they may all have to become vivocational or something. In a way, they're my main concern. We just increased by 50% the amount we support each one, which is great.

[Maggie]

A friend of mine is the treasurer in my former church. Their financial problems are no secret. I still get their newsletter and they have a letter about it in there. They have spent more than they've taken in, some of the biggest contributers have died in the last year, they had some heating problems, the expansion project has been put on hold. My friend tells me they may have to cease being a church. It's a shame, really, but in a way - maybe they should. I don't want to judge someone else's salvation but the Sunday School Superintendent tells me she doesn't believe the Bible's true. That was the final straw in pulling my dd out of that program and I stopped being a teacher at that point, too. I won't have my dd learn from nor will I be yoked with an unbeliever about God.
They have ties to the RCC, so they can't preach against their lies. They have the contemporary service sort of competing with the traditional service - the two groups seem always at odds - maybe because the older people resent being referred to as the "gray heads".
I think they'd be much better off if they weren't sending so many "apportionments" to the "head office" of the UMC. They have many, many people on their membership list that haven't attended for years and have no intentions to. Still, they pay I think $70 per person per year to the main org.
Maybe they want it to look like they have lots of members. Maybe they don't want to admit to the main org. that they don't have as many members as it seems. I don't know, but it's a dying church - now put economic collapse on top of it...
My friend is already wondering which church her family will go to instead. I got to thinking about it last night and realized there will be a number of them who won't have a problem going to the Catholic church.
I pray that the Lord does with that church what He will. If it's worth saving, then I trust He'll save it - thru the people that attend. But, perhaps, the Lord doesn't want it saved. Maybe it's become an abomination to Him.
Why does church have to cost so much? In the old days people met in homes. In the early days of our town, people gathered in barns, under trees in the meadow...money or food went to support the minister's family and to missionaries. The people of the early church put all their money collected to use for missionaries, didn't they? This UMC we used to go to is an old, drafty building. Big. With stained glass and carpet and new bathrooms and...it all costs money to upkeep. It wasn't that long ago that the windows needed to be overhauled and that cost over $10,000, I think. Well, then someone had the bright idea to donate a baby grand piano. Fine, but that's going to cost the congregation in its upkeep. And the same with the air conditioning that was donated. There were usually only a few Sundays in the summer that it was too hot in there and we'd meet in the basement with fans blowing. That was ok. Last year with the air cond. we needed sweaters in July! That costs electricity.
Well, I'm a back to basics kind of person, I guess. What are we supposed to do as a church? Worship and fellowship and teach God's truth. Send missionaries and support them. Anything extra takes away from the stated mission.
Maybe I rambled too much. Sorry.

[Rondaben]

Proverbs 22:2-3

The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.

Good post Issachar. The information is plentious in this forum that points to the underlying reasons that this time "isn't like every other time". The way that it is presented will be key. Even then, however, you will find that there are those who do not want to understand what is happening. It is an ostrich syndrome--it extends beyond the economy to the state of the world and the impending return of our Lord as well. Even believers have a lasse-faire approach to life unfortunately.

To this end I have some thoughts as to why we do not see a vast majority of churches recognizing the times we are in or preparing for them. The church organization, as we have known it, is IMO in great peril. The economy is weak, that is true. The evil of the world is great and growing daily. These, in thier own right, do not spell the end of the church. The growing apostasy in many churches--even the unseen apostasy--coupled with the other factors and a coming persecution of believers will be the undoing of the formal church organization. I forsee a day that there will be no churches per se. And I foresee that coming relatively soon.

God has however began to make his provisions for his people. I feel that we are being prepared as individuals who see the times and are working to make preparations as being the provision the Christ will make for his church. We are being called to action IMO. There will be no more time to "play church"--sit anonymously in a pew, sing a few songs, pray a few prayers. There will be real people. Hungry. Hurting. Confused and Lost. We will have to be God's people. Ready with shelter,food and the Gospel. Organized churches will not fill that basic role in the future and those that would will not be suffered to exist. The rest have become exactly what the people want--full of teachers who will tickle thier ears, soothing them but not feeding them from the word. Marx was right about those types of churches...they are the opiate of the masses who want nothing more than to go back to sleep.

[HSmomto4]

Wow...yesterday in an email I sent to my pastor, I ended the email with this

...., I do believe that in the not so distant future we as a church will have the greatest opportunity in American history to demonstrate our love for our neighbors. As the end times approach it will be the Christian church…the true Christian church, who has been watching the signs as Jesus commanded, that will be able to step in and love the surrounding community like never before. But if we just hand out our love through food, medical help, a place to sleep and counseling, we will have missed the mark drastically by not sharing the law in order to bring people under conviction and to repentance and saving grace. We can’t confuse repentance and saving grace with love and comfort, this is an inadequate gospel.

[ANewCreature]

But if we just hand out our love through food, medical help, a place to sleep and counseling, we will have missed the mark drastically by not sharing the law in order to bring people under conviction and to repentance and saving grace. We can’t confuse repentance and saving grace with love and comfort, this is an inadequate gospel.

Amen!

[Jubilee21]

Wow...yesterday in an email I sent to my pastor, I ended the email with this

...., I do believe that in the not so distant future we as a church will have the greatest opportunity in American history to demonstrate our love for our neighbors. As the end times approach it will be the Christian church…the true Christian church, who has been watching the signs as Jesus commanded, that will be able to step in and love the surrounding community like never before. But if we just hand out our love through food, medical help, a place to sleep and counseling, we will have missed the mark drastically by not sharing the law in order to bring people under conviction and to repentance and saving grace. We can’t confuse repentance and saving grace with love and comfort, this is an inadequate gospel.

What a wonderful and wise response Sister! :hug :thumb

There is a song with the lryics about the tears before there was rain..

There was a time in this world before Noah's Flood came and no one knew what rain was, but they knew all about the tears..

The rain brought Christ for those tears...and now the rain is here and with it there wil be more floods to bring the tears for Christ.

Christ shed tears in His humanity for all of us..and there are still folks who have never seen rain or understand it although they have seen floods.
God, in His will, works in many ways we must keep ourselves aware of 'arrive', as does the rain.

What may seem foolish and absurd to prepare for now, does not mean we have to understand why we are asked to now..Noah faithfully built the Ark for many years and filled it with provisions for a flood, which no one understood when it came to rain much less floods from God.

The Church, does indeed need to be ready for tears at all times as well as everything else God would have us be prepared for when it comes to much.:hug

[HSmomto4]

:ohno I just wish the pastor I sent that to understood it like you all did. He is trying to teach that to evangelize you have to love on them first by being friends with them and inviting them to parties and what not. We have been going back and forth with him about for 3 days and we are getting NO WHERE!!!