Revelation 5:9-10

[fracturedInfinity]

I was reading a response from Jack Kelly (http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/are-the-seal-judgments-open) to a question and he says this:

The church is raptured in Rev. 4 as personified by the 24 elders, and is visible in Heaven in Rev. 5:9-10 as the kingdom of priests who will reign on Earth. (Make sure you study these passages before you try to teach them to your friend, and use a King James as many of the modern translations try to fudge this.)

So, I checked it out and compared two different versions.

KJV says this:
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


which seems to say that the 24 elders are the ones that have been made kings and priests. We can safely presume that the 24 elders = the church.

ESV says this:
9And they sang a new song, saying,

"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth."

This seems to infer that the 24 elders are someone other than the church. So what's going on here? It's things like this that really get me confused about which version of the Bible I should use, and make me want to learn Greek so that I can read it as it was orginally written. :idunno

[Obadiah]

It's things like this that really get me confused about which version of the Bible I should use, and make me want to learn Greek so that I can read it as it was originally written.

Amen! If you want the most accurate understanding, there's nothing like the original!

This isn't actually a translation issue; it's a textual issue. There are conflicting readings as to whether the 24 elders are speaking of themselves or of another group (presumably the "saints" whose prayers they're offering).

Contrary to what Kelly says, no one's "trying to fudge" anything. It's an honest disagreement as to which reading is authentic.

The second occurrence (in v.10, where it says "you have made them kings/a kingdom and priests") is almost certainly "them" rather than "us" -- the evidence for "us" here is scant. Back in v.9, although "us" has substantial evidence (a clear majority, even), it's difficult to make sense of the shift from "you have redeemed us" to "you have made them."

Interestingly, if the 24 elders represent the church as you "safely assume" -- how do you understand the intercessory role they play on behalf of the saints?

[fracturedInfinity]

I thought I'd check it out on a site that I found a few weeks ago.

Well, it's not pretty, but here's the basic gist of the greek to english translation.

Verse 10 only:
kai| epoiesas| autous| toi| theoi| hemon| basileian|
and| make| self| the, that| God| ego(?)| a kingdom, dominion|

kai| kiereis| kai| basileuousin| epi|
and| a priest, sacrificer| and| to be king, to rule, reign| on, upon with gen., dat., and acc.|

tes| ges|
the, that| Gaia (or earth)|

It looks like the Greek autous translates to self so that would make us presume that in these passages the 24 elders are talking about themselves, thus implying that they are actually the church. I guess the KJV is right?



BTW, for anyone interested, the site is this:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0155;query=chap ter%3D%23243;layout=;loc=Revelation%206.1
Or, this seems to be a newer version of the same thing. Works a lot smoother too...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0155%3Abook% 3DRevelation%3Achapter%3D5%3Averse%3D10

It takes some finagling on the older verions to get to the passage you want, but they've got clickable links to define nearly each greek word of the NT in English. It's pretty handy.

[Hootmon]

Rev 5:10

(AMP) And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] over the earth!(5)

(ASV) and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

(CJB) You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth."

(ESV) and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

(KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(MKJV) And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

(NASB) "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

(NIV) You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

(YLT) and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

[Obadiah]

frac:

Perseus is an awesome site, although, like you, I've experienced some difficulty with loading times and such. But it's a free resource, so you have to take it warts and all.

I'm not sure where on Perseus you got the translation "self" for αυτους. As an adjective, αυτος is used to mean 'self' in the emphatic sense ("I did it myself"). But for a reflexive pronoun (when the object is identical to the subject of a verb), the correct form is εαυτους. NT examples of εαυτους as a first-person reflexive pronoun are abundant (e.g., 1 John 1:8; 2 Corinthians 4:5). The only way αυτους could be taken as a reflexive ("ourselves") is if it's a defective spelling for εαυτους, which is extremely doubtful. Further, a reflexive makes no sense in this context. As I said, the reflexive pronoun is used when the subject and object are identical. Here, the subject is God (addressed in 2nd person, "you"). In order for the reflexive sense to work, the 24 elders would have to be making themselves kings and priests to God. One cannot say, "You have made ourselves kings and priests" -- at least not in proper English, and definitely not in Greek. So the reading you've proposed is impossible.

I'm also still wondering about the answer to my question: do the departed members of the body of Christ offer prayers on behalf of the members of the body of Christ who are currently alive on earth? If the elders represent the church, how do you understand their intercessory function?

[fracturedInfinity]

Ah, thank you for that explanation. Like I said, I'd like to learn Greek so I can understand these things better (currently I know next to nothing).

As it is, I saw that autous meant self and I assumed that was referring to self as the speaker from which you could logically assume an "us" in the passage. I guess it's not a clear as I'd hoped. :idunno

As to where I got it from:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?l=au%29tou%5Cs&la=greek&prior=e)poi/hsas&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0155:book=Revelation:chapte r=5:verse=10&i=1

I'm also still wondering about the answer to my question: do the departed members of the body of Christ offer prayers on behalf of the members of the body of Christ who are currently alive on earth? If the elders represent the church, how do you understand their intercessory function?

I'm not sure what our role will be after the rapture. I may have look into this some time when I have a few hours to kill...

[Obadiah]

Like I said, I'd like to learn Greek so I can understand these things better

I'd strongly encourage you to pursue that goal. There's all sorts of resources available. And the reward far outweighs the work you need to put into it.