How to Reconcile

[lmenningen]

How do we reconcile to someone the difference between "...it is appointed for men to die once..." and "...then we who are alive...shall be caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord..."? (Heb 9:27, I Thes 4:17 NKJV)

This translation is not the same as ..."Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." in II Kings 2:11 which may explain why some people think he may be coming back to earth in Rev. and will subsequently face death. But the rest of vs. 4:17 says "...thus we shall always be with the Lord.", therefore no one will be coming back to earth to face death, as in the case of Elijah.

Since the wages of sin is death, are we going to explain that the rapture translation is actually equivalent to the punishment of death? Or are we going to say the rapture translation is a legal exception to Heb 9:27? Something else?

[Kamatu]

We are no longer under the sentence of sin, being justified by faith. The verse in Hebrews is more against the concept of reincarnation.

[jean]

There is no reconcilation to the two siminglly the same verse they are two totally diferent in context ,the first in hebrews you qouted refers to the judgement or the punishment of those who refuse christ now in this age of grace or later during tribulation.The other in thessalonians is referring to the salvation of christians from the great tribulation after the rapture.



How do we reconcile to someone the difference between "...it is appointed for men to die once..." and "...then we who are alive...shall be caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord..."? (Heb 9:27, I Thes 4:17 NKJV)

This translation is not the same as ..."Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." in II Kings 2:11 which may explain why some people think he may be coming back to earth in Rev. and will subsequently face death. But the rest of vs. 4:17 says "...thus we shall always be with the Lord.", therefore no one will be coming back to earth to face death, as in the case of Elijah.

Since the wages of sin is death, are we going to explain that the rapture translation is actually equivalent to the punishment of death? Or are we going to say the rapture translation is a legal exception to Heb 9:27? Something else?

[Buzzardhut]

are we going to explain that the rapture translation is actually equivalent to the punishment of death? Or are we going to say the rapture translation is a legal exception to Heb 9:27? Something else?
the rapture is a translation from mortal life to eternal life

[lmenningen]

the rapture is a translation from mortal life to eternal lifeWell, that is not an answer, that is the question itself - "the rapture is a translation from mortal life to eternal life" without going through the physical death that has been sentenced upon Adam and all who are descendants of Adam.

So just what is the judicial relief that absolves the physical death sentence (not considering spiritual death/life, that aspect is well explained in the Bible) for rapturees?

[Kamatu]

I assume my exegesis wasn't enough for you, start here then:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not only can the point about reincarnation beliefs be pointed out, but if it is the will and pleasure of God to have those that are alive and remain caught up to Him while still alive, then He can do so.

[lmenningen]

I assume my exegesis wasn't enough for you,..The chapter you chose to copy is among those prompting the question itself, yet the same chapter has a verse that seems to obliquely touch the subject, though not one of the verses you underlined.
...Not only can the point about reincarnation beliefs be pointed out,...Perhaps, but the more common understanding of that passage is that "it is appointed" for man to die at least once (but not necessarily a second time), that appointment being a penal one, the sentence for violating the word of God, as warned in Gen 2:17.
...if it is the will and pleasure of God to have those that are alive and remain caught up to Him while still alive, then He can do so.This applies to everything God says and does and is somethimes the only answer man can come up with. But frequently God has given at least a partial answer somewhere in His word.

I'm now realizing this is a question not many have thought about.

[Kamatu]

I'm now realizing this is a question not many have thought about.

Actually, to me at least, it is a trivial question, which may be why I'm not able to make my point. Let me try again and notice the multiple references to the cleansing of all sin.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The problem with a position of some not having to pay the penalty (penal appointment) of dying at least once is that it denies the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ for all sins. If Christ is not enough, then what more do we need to do? Are you sure it will be enough? How do you know when it will be enough? This leads to a salvation by works theology.

[lmenningen]

Actually, to me at least, it is a trivial question...Yes, it is, but even so, it is something to consider.

...The problem with a position of some not having to pay the penalty (penal appointment) of dying at least once is that it denies the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ for all sins. If Christ is not enough, then what more do we need to do?...That all makes sense, but believers today still die because His death did not absolve physical death. It is not a question of whether His death (and resurrection) was "sufficient", simply because His dying wasn't intended to do any such thing in the first place.

It is just something I cannot explain to myself, let alone to others.

[Hootmon]

That all makes sense, but believers today still die because His death did not absolve physical death. It is not a question of whether His death (and resurrection) was "sufficient", simply because His dying wasn't intended to do any such thing in the first place.Death's 'sting' was removed. Its not permanent any more for those who are His.