Is anyone familiar with the history of the Waldenses Bible?

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Is anyone familiar with the history of the Waldenses? How credible is it, as presented in the highlighted portions of this link:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:BrTTpNcp0cYJ:members.aol.com/dwibclc/waldbib.htm+Waldensian+bible+proof&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Basically KJVO make vague references to this other apostolic line of succession that links back to 120 AD. This particular page is the most detailed of the history I've seen. Not being familiar with it, I'm wondering how probable it is, or if there are any misquotes or stretching of the truth here to fabricate a history that never happened?

[ingel]

this is what i found at wikipedia:

Waldensians
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Waldensian Evangelical Church
Founders: Peter Waldo
Founding date: circa 1177; in 1532 acceded to Franco-Swiss Protestant Reform
Headquarters: Torre Pellice, Piemonte, Italy
Countries: International; but mainly Italy, France, Germany and South America.
Website: http://www.chiesavaldese.org/indexen.html
The Waldensians, Waldenses or Vaudois began as a Christian spiritual movement of the later Middle Ages, descendants of which still exist in various regions. Over time, the denomination joined the Genevan or Reformed branch of the Protestant Reformation. About the earlier history of the Waldenses considerable uncertainty exists because of the lack of extant source material.[1] They were persecuted as heretical before the 16th Century, endured near annihilation in the 17th century,[2] and were then confronted with organized and generalized discrimination in centuries that followed.[3][4][5] There are active congregations in Europe, Latin America, and North America. The contemporary and historic Waldensian spiritual heritage includes proclaiming the Gospel, serving among the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience.[6]

General description
The earliest Waldensians believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures.[1] The sect originated in the late 12th century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyon, who gave away his property around 1177 and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection.[1]

In 1179, they went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching without authorization from the local clergy.[7] They disobeyed and began to preach according to their own understanding of scripture. Seen by the Roman Catholic Church as unorthodox, they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215.[7] In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg[who?], beginning several centuries of persecution that nearly destroyed the sect. Part of their legacy is recognized as works of the writer Henri Arnaud. The Waldensian Church of Italy has survived to the present day.

Some groups of Mennonites and Baptists in the attempt to trace apostolic succession through the Waldenses, claim that the Waldenses history extends back to the apostolic church.[1] Many Roman Catholic and mainstream Protestant scholars contest that this has no basis in fact.[1][7][8] The mainstream academic view is that the Waldensians were followers of Peter Waldo (or Valdes or Vaudes) and that any similarity in doctrine between the Waldensians and the early Christians is not necessarily the result of direct ancestry.[1][7][9]

there is alot more there to read but i didn't post it here. i am including the link if you want to read the rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

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Has anyone verified this?


"The Vaudois
Now the "Waldensian," or "Vaudois" Bibles stretch from about 157 to the 1400s AD. The fact is, according to John Calvin's successor Theodore Beza, that the Vaudois received the Scriptures from missionaries of Antioch of Syria in the 120s AD and finished translating it into their Latin language by 157 AD. This Bible was passed down from generation, until the Reformation of the 1500s, when the Protestants translated the Vaudois Bible into French, Italian, etc. This Bible carries heavy weight when finding out what God really said. John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards believed, as most of the Reformers, that the Vaudois were the descendants of the true Christians, and that they preserved the Christian faith for the Bible-believing Christians today."

( http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp )

and


The Old Latin, Italic or Itala Version
Don’t make the mistake that many people make. When they hear the word Latin used in conjunction with the Bible or church, automatically assume that it is to be associated with the Roman Catholic Church. However, that is not true because in northern Italy, the Italic Church ahd begun in A.D. 120 according to Theodore Beza, the associate and successor of John Calvin and the great Swiss reformer. Its remoteness isolated it from the influence of the Church at Rome. The Italic Church was the forerunner of churches in this same region, which would later be called the Vaudois, or, the Waldenses. Both of these names simply mean "peoples of the valleys." The Italic or pre-Waldensian Church produced a version of the New Testament, which was translated from the Received Text by the year 157 A.D. The noted church historian Frederic Nolan confirms this. This date is less than one hundred years after most of the books of the New Testament were written. The greater point is that the Itala (or Old Latin) was translated from the Received Text, indicating its existence to the earliest days of the New Testament church. Therefore, the Received Text clearly existed and was used by churches in early church history.

( http://logosresourcepages.org/Versions/received.htm )

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Other quotes


The Old Latin from which the Tepl descended is also found in the manuscripts of the Waldensians.History teaches that the Waldensians were those Christians who lived in the Vaudois valley in northern Italy.The Waldensian Church has been dated back to about A.D. 120.Their Old Itala Bible was translated in the early second century.The Waldensians were severely persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church between the fourth and thirteenth centuries.As Jack Moorman argues, "Research into the text and history of the Waldensian Bible has shown that it is a literal descendant of the Old Itala.In other words, the Itala has come down to us in Waldensian form, and firmly supports the Traditional Text."[66]Gail Riplinger, goes on to promulgate, "It [the Waldensian Bible] was a translation of the true text into the rather rude Low Latin of the second century . . . the Bible of the Waldensians was used to carry the true text throughout Europe."[67]

The translators of the AV 1611 King James Bible did not simply include the Comma because it was in Erasmus' edition of the Greek New Testament; they had four Bibles on their tables that had come under heavy Waldensian influence.[68]All four contained the Johannine Comma as contained in the Textus Receptus.The first of these was the Geneva Bible which was translated in 1557 at Geneva, the center of the Swiss Reformation.The basis for the Geneva Bible was the French Olivetan which was translated by Olivetan, a Waldensian pastor and relative of John Calvin.This fact illustrates "how readily the two streams of descent of the Received Text, through the Greek East and the Waldensian West, ran together."[69]Secondly, the AV translators utilized the Greek text of Theodore Beza, Calvin's successor at Geneva.With Calvin's help, Beza brought out a later edition of the Textus Receptus.Wilkinson argues:

This later edition of the Received Text is in reality a Greek New Testament brought out under Waldensian influence.Unquestionably, the leaders of the Reformation -- German, French, and English--were convinced that the Received Text was the genuine New Testament, not only by its own irresistible history and internal evidence, but also because it matched with the Received Text which in Waldensian form came down from the days of the apostles [emphasis mine].[70]

The third Bible influenced by the Waldensians and utilized by the AV translators was the Italian Diodati.Diodati, an Italian, succeeded Beza in the chair of Theology at Geneva and translated the received text into Italian."This version was adopted by the Waldenses, although there was in use at that time a Waldensian Bible in their own peculiar language."[71]The fourth Bible of interest is the German Tepl which, as previously mentioned, was a translation of a pre-Jerome Latin text into German."This Tepl manuscript represented a translation of the Waldensian Bible into the German which was spoken before the days of the Reformation."[72]In addition to these four Bibles, there is reason to believe that the King James translators had access to at least six Waldensian Bibles written in the old Waldensian vernacular, all of which contained the disputed passage.[73]

In relation to the Old Latin, Waldensians, and the Johannine Comma, it is only appropriate to summarize a rather lengthy discourse byFrederick Nolan.In Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, he argues that the Old Latin derived its name from the Italick Church (distinguished from Roman Catholic).The principal copies of this version have been preserved in that diocese, the metropolitan church of which was situated at Milan.Remains of the primitive Old Latin version can be found in the early translations made by the Waldensians, who were the lineal descendants of the Italick church.They asserted their independence against the usurpations of the Church of Rome, and consequently, enjoyed the free use of the Scriptures.All of this provided Nolan "with abundant proof on that point to which his inquiry was chiefly directed; as it has supplied him with the unequivocal testimony of a truly apostolical branch of the primitive church, that the celebrated text of the heavenly witnesses was adopted in the version which prevailed in the Latin Church, previously to the introduction of the modern Vulgate."[74]Therefore, claims that the Comma made its way into the King James Version by way of the Roman Catholic Vulgate are false.

...

[67]Gail Riplinger, Which Bible is God's Word (Ararat, VA: AV Publications, 1995),53.

[68]Benjamin Wilkinson, "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated," in Which Bible?Ed. by David Otis Fuller (Grand Rapids, MI: Grand Rapids International Publications, 1975),212.

[69]Ibid.,210.

[70]Ibid.

[71]Ibid.,211.

[72]Ibid. [emphasis mine].

[73]Ibid.

( http://www.ovrlnd.com/Bible/casefor1john57.html )

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I find that history fascinating.


John Wesley has this to say about the Vaudois or Waldenses: "It is a vulgar mistake, that the Waldenses were so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons. They were much more ancient than him; and their true name was Vallenses or Vaudois from their inhabiting the valleys of Lucerne and Agrogne. This name, Vallenses, after Waldo appeared about the year 1160, was changed by the Papists into Waldenses, on purpose to represent them as of modern original." (Notes on the Revelation of John, Revelation, Chapter 13, Verse 6, p. 936.)

Here is an important fact cited by Jonathan Edwards: "Some of the popish writers themselves own, that this people never submitted to the church of Rome. One of the popish writers, speaking of the Waldenses, says, The heresy of the Waldenses is the oldest heresy in the world. It is supposed that they first betook themselves to this place among the mountains, to hide themselves from the severity of the heathen persecutions which existed before Constantine the Great [272-337 AD]. And thus the woman fled into the wilderness from the face of the serpent" (The Works of Jonathan Edwards Vol. 4, Work of Redemption., Period 3 - From Christ's Resurrection to the End Of the World, Part 4, p. 229.)"

(www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Edit_Thy_Word_Is_Truth.html)

[Buzzardhut]

Sounds good to me :)
I know that catholics don't like it
i wonder why? :thinking

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Doing a search on the above references I came across this online version of Wesley's notes on Rev 13:

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=wes&b=66&c=13

Verse 6 was originally cited, but I found this on the notes for verse 7:


"Verse 7

[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And it was given him — That is, God permitted him.

To make war with his saints — With the Waldenses and Albigenses. It is a vulgar mistake, that the Waldenses were so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons. They were much more ancient than him; and their true name was Vallenses or Vaudois from their inhabiting the valleys of Lucerne and Agrogne. This name, Vallenses, after Waldo appeared about the year 1160, was changed by the Papists into Waldenses, on purpose to represent them as of modern original. The Albigenses were originally people of Albigeois, part of Upper Languedoc, where they considerably prevailed, and possessed several towns in the year 1200. Against these many of the Popes made open war. Till now the blood of Christians had been shed only by the heathens or Arians; from this time by scarce any but the Papacy. In the year 1208 Innocent III. proclaimed a crusade against them. In June, 1209, the army assembled at Toulouse; from which time abundance of blood was shed, and the second army of martyrs began to be added to the first, who had cried "from beneath the altar." And ever since, the beast has been warring against the saints, and shedding their blood like water.

And authority was given him over every tribe and people — Particularly in Europe. And when a way was found by sea into the East Indies, and the West, these also were brought under his authority."

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Other things from that chapter:


Verse 1: "...A.D. 1204. Innocent III. sets up the Inquisition against the Vaudois..."


and


Verse 17: "...That no man might buy or sell — Such edicts have been published long since against the poor Vaudois...."

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Here's what I found for Jonathan Edwards and previously mentioned "A HISTORY OF THE WORK OF REDEMPTION by Jonathan Edwards SECTION 4 PART 4 THE SUCCESS OF REDEMPTION FROM THE RISE OF ANTICHRIST TO THE REFORMATION.":

http://www.reformed.org/books/edwards/redemption/index.html?mainframe=/books/edwards/redemption/redem_pt3_S4p04.html


II. I come now to show how the church of Christ was upheld through this dark time.

1. It is to be observed, that towards the former part of this space of time, some of the nations of Christendom held out a lone time before they complied with the corruption’s and usurpations of the church of Rome. Though all the world wondered after the beast, yet all nations did not fall in at once. Many of the principal corruptions of the church of Rome were brought in with a great deal of struggle and opposition; and particularly, when the pope gave out, that he was universal bishop, many churches greatly opposed him in it; and it was a long time before they would yield to his exorbitant claims. And so, when the worship of images was first brought into the churches, there were many who greatly opposed it, and long held out against it. And so with respect to other corruptions of the church of Rome. Those who dwelt nearer to the city of Rome complied sooner; but some that were more remote, were a long time before they could be induced to put their necks under the yoke: and particularly a great part of the churches in England, Scotland, and France, retained the ancient purity of doctrine and worship much longer than many others who were nearer the chief seat of Antichrist.

2. In every age of this dark time, there appeared particular persons in all parts of Christendom, who bore a testimony against the corruptions and tyranny of the church of Rome. There is no one age of Antichrist, even in the darkest times, but ecclesiastical historians mention many by name who manifested an abhorrence of the pope, and his idolatrous worship, and pleaded for the ancient purity of doctrine and worship. God was pleased to maintain an uninterrupted succession of many witnesses through the whole time, in Germany, France, Britain, and other countries; private persons and ministers, some magistrates and persons of great distinction. – And there were numbers in every age who were persecuted and put to death for this testimony.

3. Besides these particular persons dispersed, there was a certain People called the Waldeneses, who lived separate from all the rest of the world, and constantly bore a testimony against the church of Rome through all this dark time The place where they dwelt was the Vaudois, or the five valleys of Piedmont, a very mountainous country, between Italy and France; it was compassed about with those exceeding high mountains, the Alps, which were almost impassable, and therefore the valleys were almost inaccessible. There this people lived for many ages, in a state of a separation from all the world, having very little to do with any other people And there they served God in the ancient purity of his worship, and never submitted to the church of Rome. This probably was the place especially meant in the 12th chapter of Revelation, 6th verse, as prepared of God for the woman, that they should feed her there during the reign of Antichrist.

Some of the popish writers themselves own, that this people never submitted to the church of Rome. One of the popish writers, speaking of the Waldenses, says, The heresy of the Waldenses is the oldest heresy in the world. It is supposed that they first betook themselves to this place among the mountains, to hide themselves from the severity of the heathen persecutions which existed before Constantine the Great. And thus the woman fled into the wilderness from the face of the serpent, Revelation 12:6, 14. "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place: where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." The people being settled there, their posterity continued from age to age: and being, as it were, by natural walls, as well as by God’s grace, separated horn the rest of the world, they never partook of the overflowing corruption.

These especially were those virgins who were not defiled, when other churches prostituted themselves; but they kept themselves pure for Christ alone. They followed the Lamb, their spiritual husband, whithersoever he went: they followed him into this hideous wilderness, Revelation 14:4, 5. – Their doctrine and worship appear to be the same with the Protestant doctrine and worship; and by the confession of popish writers, they were a people remarkable for the strictness of their lives, for charity and other christian virtues. They lived in external poverty in this hideous country; but they chose this rather than comply with the great corruptions of the rest of the world.

Living in so secret a place, it was a long time before they were noticed. But at last, falling under observation, the Romanists went out in mighty armies against them, fell upon them with insatiable cruelty, barbarously massacring and putting to death men, women, and children, with all imaginable tortures. Their enemies continued persecuting them with but little intermission for several hundred years; by which means many were driven out of the valleys of Piedmont. These fled into all parts of Europe, carrying with them their doctrine, to which many were brought overse Their persecutors could not by all their cruelties extirpate the church of God; so fulfilling his word, "that the gates of hell should not prevail against it."

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Still trying to track down the Beza's 120 AD reference. Here's another website claiming this as well.


Why are we spending time on this subject? We owe a great deal to the Waldensian Christians for our English Bible. Theodore Beza, the man that collated the mss our Authorized Version is based on, had this to say about the Waldensian Christians.

“One must confess it was by means of the Vaudois of the Valleys that France today has the Bible in her own language. This godly man, Olivetan (translator of the Olivetan Bible of France), in the preface of his Bible, recognizes with thanks to God, that since the time of the apostles, or their immediate successors, the torch of the gospel has been lit among the Vaudois, and has never been extinguished.” The Vaudois lived in the valleys of the French Alps. Leger, in 1669, said in his book General History of the Evangelical Churches of the Piedmontese Valleys, that Olivetan’s French Bible of 1537 was “entire and pure.” Leger was a Waldensian who used the Waldensian Old Latin, which came from the Received Text of Antioch, Syria, where we were first called Christians.

The Reformers held that the Waldensian Church was formed about A.D. 120, and passed down their teachings from the apostles. The Old Latin Bible was translated from the Greek mss of Antioch not later than A.D. 157.

Beza stated that the Italic Church dates from A.D. 120.

(http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:HHR3CU5yauQJ:www.dr1611.org/O%2520Biblios+%22Theodore+Beza%22+120+antioch+vaud ois&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca)

No sign of the reference to 120 AD. Wiki had this to say about Beza and that group


Journeys on behalf of the Protestants
In 1557, Beza took a special interest in the Waldensians of Piedmont, who were being harassed by the French government. On their behalf, he went with Farel to Bern, Zurich,Basel, and Schaffhausen, then to Strasburg, Mumpelgart, Baden, and Göppingen. In Baden and Göppingen, Beza and Farel made a declaration concerning the Waldensians' views on the sacrament on May 14, 1557. The written declaration clearly stated their position and was well received by the Lutheran theologians, but was strongly disapproved of in Bern and Zurich.
In the autumn of 1558 Beza undertook a second journey with Farel to Worms by way of Strasburg in the hopes of bringing about an intercession by the Evangelical princes of the empire in favor of the persecuted brethren at Paris. With Melanchthon and other theologians then assembled at the Colloquy of Worms, Beza proposed a union of all Protestant Christians, but the proposal was decidedly denied by Zurich and Bern.
False reports reached the German princes that the hostilities against the Huguenots in France had ceased and no embassy was sent to the court of France. As a result, Beza undertook another journey with Farel, Johannes Buddaeus, and Gaspard Carmel to Strasburg and Frankfort, where the sending of an embassy to Paris was resolved upon.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Beza#Journeys_on_behalf_of_the_Protestant s )

Again no direct 120 reference of Beza on record saying this.

Please post here if you find it :)