The last trump

[LAURIEH]

Hi ,
I am brand new at message boards so not sure how this all works but I need some help .
I have a good friend who doesn't believe in a pre trib rapture based of 1 Corinthians 15:52
"In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed."

I need to show him from Scripture that this last trumpet is not the last trumpet spoken of in Revelation. 11.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
God bless

[Sing4Him]

THIS IS GREAT::thumb:thumb

The Last Trumpet

DR Thomas Ice

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

-1 Corinthians 15:51-52


It is not unusual for some posttribulationists to think that they have fired a silver bullet which they believe destroys the possibility of the pretribulational rapture teaching. That shot is usually thought to be in the form of the argument relating to "the last trumpet" as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even though some think they have found a slick and simple solution to the timing of the rapture, they fail to realize that the New Testament teaching concerning this issue is more sophisticated than that.


Scripture Or A Survival Guide?
I recall years ago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellers convention in the early 90s. He made the "last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christian Will Go Through The Tribulation.[1] Judging from the title, I thought it would be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book's title. It was any thing but that! He basically presented a single argument, (the last trumpet argument), in just a few pages and drew the following conclusion:


If a Christian will put out of his mind all of his preconceived ideas about a Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation, and will look objectively at what the Scriptures have to say, I believe he will conclude that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dead will be raised at the "last trumpet." In Revelation, at the LAST trumpet we see the beginning of Christ's reign and the FIRST resurrection. Nothing could be simpler. There are no complications, if you accept the fact that the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.[2]


First of all, I arrived at my pretribulational beliefs through the study of the Bible, thus, I am not going just put them out of my mind when I am challenged to examine the beliefs of others. I doubt the Bereans put their understanding of the Bible out of their minds when "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). So we are to do just the opposite of what McKeever and others like him when they suggest that we approach any issue with an open mind. I do not want to be open-minded when examining issues, I want to be biblically-minded.

Second, we should not use a reductionist approach to Scripture, as McKeever suggests, when an issue involves a degree of sophistication. Such an approach is often used by opponents of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ. If one applies a reductionist approach to Scripture in relation to the Trinity and the hypostatic union, it would only lead to heretical conclusions.

Third, McKeever frontloads his own approach to the matter by taking the phrase "last trumpet" and equating it with the seventh trumpet in Revelation (11:15-19). (This is an erroneous assumption that I will deal with later.) McKeever says, "A significant thing is that verse 52 tells us WHEN all of this will occur, and this "at the LAST trumpet. . . . It would then seem reasonable to turn to the book of Revelation to find out something about this 'last' trumpet."[3]

Other than a fraction of this single chapter, which very weakly argues for his "last trumpet" view, the rest of the book (17 chapters and about 350 pages) is a survival guide on how to make it alive through the tribulation. It just so happens that McKeever was a key player in the survivalist movement and he provides great detail, something lacking concerning His biblical arguments for posttribulationism, for how to prepare to survive the tribulation. I have often thought that if one really believes in posttribulationism, then, logically it should lead to survival preparation that would aid the church in going through the tribulation. I am sure that there are a few posttribulationists who have made some preparation, but such preparation appears to be generally lacking with those who hold this view.


Biblical Trumpets
Paul does teach in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the rapture will take place at the last trumpet. Do posttribulationist like McKeever have a point or is there a better explanation that takes into account the whole counsel of God on this matter? How does Paul's last trumpet statement harmonize with pretribulationism?

Throughout the Bible there are a number of trumpets being blown. For example in Numbers 10 there are trumpets being used in order to give commands to the people of Israel. For example, a trumpet is used to assemble the people for their journey and another trumpet that signals the start of their journey. There were trumpet sounds that would tell the people to stop and another sound telling them to assemble. Depending upon whether the people were moving are getting ready to move, the last trumpet would signal them to move or if moving, a second last trumpet sound would tell them when to stop. So even in this context, for example, there are multiple "last trumpets."


Trumpets in Revelation
Some midtribulationist and posttribulationists attempt to equate the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically "last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says "the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.

The "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, "There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet."[4] Henry Thiessen agrees:


If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: "For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the "trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord's presence.[5]


If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.


1 Corinthians 15:52
The context of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is very different than the context of Revelation 11:15. 1 Corinthians 15:52 better harmonizes with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which says, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Both passages speak of the rapture and judgment is absent from both. The trumpet in both are the last or final command that the Lord gives to the church, resulting in the translation of all Believers. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost cites the following reasons as to why the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is different from any of the trumpet judgments in Revelation.


There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps. (1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . . (2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel's trumpet. . . . (3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven. (4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view. (5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God. (6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall "begin to sound." . . . (7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel. (8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . . (9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events.[6]


Conclusion
The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the final command that Christ provides for His church when He sends the signal to gather us together for the meeting in the sky that we know as the rapture. The contexts of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and that of Revelation 11 are totally different from one another. About the only similarity between the two is that the word "trumpet" is used in both. (Actually the word "trumpet" is not even used in Revelation 11:15-19. The text actually says, "the seventh angel sounded" (11:15), clearly implying that a trumpet is sounded as noted in Revelation 8:2). The respective contexts are totally different. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, there is the context of things related to the church age, while Revelation 11 speaks of judgment during the tribulation. No such silver bullet argument exists for posttribulationism since I believe that it is clear that the New Testament does not teach such a view. Maranatha!


http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=175

[LAURIEH]

Awesome...Thank you..
I agree 100% with a pretribulation rapture ,hopefully very very soon . I have read the Scriptures and processed them in my soul so I believe them completely but when I am challenged by someone, I have a difficult explaining what I know.
I have sent your response to my friend and hopefully he will have an open mind .:thumb
God bless
I am so grateful for this board and for all of you who love Our Lord Jesus Christ as I do..

[writesinme]

Honestly, I'm not sure where I stand any more on rapture timing (I'm studying, tho!), but regarding the OP's question...

When Paul spoke about "at the last trump", it was about 30 years before the Book of Revelation was written. If he had been refering to the trumpet in Rev, the Corinthians would have had no idea what he was talking about!

I agree with Pre-Trib (and I think Pre-Wrath holds it, too) that the "last trump" was refering to something else...and it's something the Corinthians would have understood from Old Testament prophecies.

[BlessedAssurance]

:hug You're awesome. Is there anything Biblical that Dr. Thomas Ice didn't write an article for? Are these all on the front page?

THIS IS GREAT::thumb:thumb

The Last Trumpet

DR Thomas Ice

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

-1 Corinthians 15:51-52


It is not unusual for some posttribulationists to think that they have fired a silver bullet which they believe destroys the possibility of the pretribulational rapture teaching. That shot is usually thought to be in the form of the argument relating to "the last trumpet" as found in 1 Corinthians 15:52. Even though some think they have found a slick and simple solution to the timing of the rapture, they fail to realize that the New Testament teaching concerning this issue is more sophisticated than that.


Scripture Or A Survival Guide?
I recall years ago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellers convention in the early 90s. He made the "last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christian Will Go Through The Tribulation.[1] Judging from the title, I thought it would be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book's title. It was any thing but that! He basically presented a single argument, (the last trumpet argument), in just a few pages and drew the following conclusion:


If a Christian will put out of his mind all of his preconceived ideas about a Rapture occurring at the beginning of the Tribulation, and will look objectively at what the Scriptures have to say, I believe he will conclude that the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and that the dead will be raised at the "last trumpet." In Revelation, at the LAST trumpet we see the beginning of Christ's reign and the FIRST resurrection. Nothing could be simpler. There are no complications, if you accept the fact that the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation.[2]


First of all, I arrived at my pretribulational beliefs through the study of the Bible, thus, I am not going just put them out of my mind when I am challenged to examine the beliefs of others. I doubt the Bereans put their understanding of the Bible out of their minds when "they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11). So we are to do just the opposite of what McKeever and others like him when they suggest that we approach any issue with an open mind. I do not want to be open-minded when examining issues, I want to be biblically-minded.

Second, we should not use a reductionist approach to Scripture, as McKeever suggests, when an issue involves a degree of sophistication. Such an approach is often used by opponents of the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ. If one applies a reductionist approach to Scripture in relation to the Trinity and the hypostatic union, it would only lead to heretical conclusions.

Third, McKeever frontloads his own approach to the matter by taking the phrase "last trumpet" and equating it with the seventh trumpet in Revelation (11:15-19). (This is an erroneous assumption that I will deal with later.) McKeever says, "A significant thing is that verse 52 tells us WHEN all of this will occur, and this "at the LAST trumpet. . . . It would then seem reasonable to turn to the book of Revelation to find out something about this 'last' trumpet."[3]

Other than a fraction of this single chapter, which very weakly argues for his "last trumpet" view, the rest of the book (17 chapters and about 350 pages) is a survival guide on how to make it alive through the tribulation. It just so happens that McKeever was a key player in the survivalist movement and he provides great detail, something lacking concerning His biblical arguments for posttribulationism, for how to prepare to survive the tribulation. I have often thought that if one really believes in posttribulationism, then, logically it should lead to survival preparation that would aid the church in going through the tribulation. I am sure that there are a few posttribulationists who have made some preparation, but such preparation appears to be generally lacking with those who hold this view.


Biblical Trumpets
Paul does teach in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the rapture will take place at the last trumpet. Do posttribulationist like McKeever have a point or is there a better explanation that takes into account the whole counsel of God on this matter? How does Paul's last trumpet statement harmonize with pretribulationism?

Throughout the Bible there are a number of trumpets being blown. For example in Numbers 10 there are trumpets being used in order to give commands to the people of Israel. For example, a trumpet is used to assemble the people for their journey and another trumpet that signals the start of their journey. There were trumpet sounds that would tell the people to stop and another sound telling them to assemble. Depending upon whether the people were moving are getting ready to move, the last trumpet would signal them to move or if moving, a second last trumpet sound would tell them when to stop. So even in this context, for example, there are multiple "last trumpets."


Trumpets in Revelation
Some midtribulationist and posttribulationists attempt to equate the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18. Revelation 11:15, does not say specifically "last trumpet." Instead, the Revelation passage says "the seventh angel sounded." The seventh trumpet is the seventh in a series of judgments. The seventh trumpet is the last in a series of trumpet judgments but it is not the last judgment in the series, seven more judgments (bowls) follow.

The "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is singular, referring to one judgment, not a sequence of seven. Ellicott notes, "There are no sufficient grounds for supposing that there is here any reference to the seventh Apocalyptic trumpet (Rev. xi. 15), or to the seventh and last trumpet."[4] Henry Thiessen agrees:


If he had thought of this trumpet as one of seven, he would undoubtedly have said something like the following: "For when the trumpets will be sounded and the time comes for the last one to sound, the dead in Christ shall be raised." At any rate, there is no ground for identifying the "trump" in 1 Cor. 15:52 with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15. Those in the Revelation introduce fearful judgments upon the world and mankind; this one calls the dead in Christ out of their graves and summons both the ones raised and the believers still living into the Lord's presence.[5]


If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11. The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.


1 Corinthians 15:52
The context of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is very different than the context of Revelation 11:15. 1 Corinthians 15:52 better harmonizes with 1 Thessalonians 4:16, which says, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Both passages speak of the rapture and judgment is absent from both. The trumpet in both are the last or final command that the Lord gives to the church, resulting in the translation of all Believers. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost cites the following reasons as to why the "last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is different from any of the trumpet judgments in Revelation.


There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps. (1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . . (2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel's trumpet. . . . (3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven. (4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view. (5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God. (6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall "begin to sound." . . . (7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel. (8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . . (9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events.[6]


Conclusion
The last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the final command that Christ provides for His church when He sends the signal to gather us together for the meeting in the sky that we know as the rapture. The contexts of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and that of Revelation 11 are totally different from one another. About the only similarity between the two is that the word "trumpet" is used in both. (Actually the word "trumpet" is not even used in Revelation 11:15-19. The text actually says, "the seventh angel sounded" (11:15), clearly implying that a trumpet is sounded as noted in Revelation 8:2). The respective contexts are totally different. In 1 Corinthians 15:52, there is the context of things related to the church age, while Revelation 11 speaks of judgment during the tribulation. No such silver bullet argument exists for posttribulationism since I believe that it is clear that the New Testament does not teach such a view. Maranatha!


http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=175

[ReadyForDeparture]

Let us not forget also the trumpet in Revelation 4:1 where John is raptured up to heaven to be shown what is to happen in the future.
Revelation 4
1 AFTER THIS I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard addressing me like a war trumpet said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place in the future.

So here again after John is shown the stages of the Church in history, he hears a "war" trumpet and he is transported right into Heaven. Then the descriptions of the tribulation period start in the book. The "Church" is not mentioned again in the scriptures in Revelation till 6 verses from the end of the entire Bible, after being mentioned over and over in the first 3 chapters, up until this trumpet blast, and John being raptured up to Heaven.

Ready for Departure....

[fracturedInfinity]

THIS IS GREAT::thumb:thumb
...

I concur! Thanks for posting that! :thumb :thumb

[bookworm1711]

The way I have presented the answer to this question to friends (including some of the men in my adult Sunday school class!) is to state:

(1) The trumpet in Revelation 11:15 is the last trumpet of a series of seven, though it is not ever called "last" in the book of Revelation;

(2) The "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the last absolutely, for the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31 that follows the tribulation (Matthew 24:29) clearly comes after it; it occurs after the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 because it occurs at the open manifestation of Christ's Second Advent (Matthew 24:30), which in the book of Revelation is recorded in Revelation 19:11-16, which is after the time expressed in Revelation 11:15.

(3) The "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 clearly must be identified with "the trump of God" mentioned at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, for both passages speak of the same two major events marking the Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church: 1) the resurrection of the dead in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:52, "the dead shall be raised incorruptible"; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, "and the dead in Christ shall rise first") and 2) the Rapture and translation of living believers (1 Corinthians 15:51, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"; 1 Corinthians 15:52, "and we shall be changed"; 1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord").

(4) That the Pre-tribulation Rapture must be before the Day of the Lord and the Great Tribulation may readily be seen by the fact that that is the order in which Paul always discusses them. (a) In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 we have Paul's great discussion of the Rapture; in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 we have his discussion regarding "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), a discussion that clearly follows his discussion of the Rapture in chapter 4. (b) In 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 we have the same sequence when we also take into account 1 Corinthians 15:23, 24, where Paul clearly specifies at verse 23, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end...." Paul expands what he refers to in verse 23 "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" in his discussion at 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52, where he adds more details. (c) The same order may be seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where he first speaks of "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," a clear reference to the gathering he had already written them of at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17, "caught up together with them"), and follows in the next verse, 2 Thessalonians 2:2 by a reference denying that "the day of Christ is at hand," where the better Greek texts and many modern English translations more correctly read "the day of the Lord." The Greek text at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 uses a strong term for "deceive," the same Greek term used at 1 Timothy 2:14 (Adam was deceived; Eve was greatly deceived), such that it may well be understood here to mean "super-deceive." To me, this would suggest that Paul considered the mistaken view he was refuting as heresy (otherwise, why select the stronger term?), yet it is a view much favored in many circles (not here!) as correct, namely, that believers of this age will enter the period we know as The Day of the Lord, a period which includes the Great Tribulation. Paul's repeated and emphatic statement that his message is one of comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:18. 5:11) would certainly mark such a view (that they were in, or that we will ever be in the Day of the Lord) as mistaken. Paul's message of comfort corresponds exactly with the teaching of Christ on this subject (1 Thessalonians 4:15, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord," a statement Paul uses to mark what Jesus taught specifically during His earthly ministry, a reference to John 11:25, 26; 1 Thessalonians 4:18, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words," corresponds with the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:1, "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me" and John 14:3, "...I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also," recorded in what is perhaps the most comforting chapter in the Bible!).

(5) There are no Resurrection/Rapture passages which speak of the Great Tribulation (in terms of the Rapture occurring during the Great Tribulation period), and no Great Tribulation passages which speak of a COMBINED resurrection of the dead in Christ AND rapture and translation of living believers.

[kgreen20]

With your permission, bookworm 1711, I'm going to copy and paste your explanation for someone else who has asked me about the last trumpet.

[bookworm1711]

You certainly have my permission to make use of what I've posted, kgreen20 and all!

That was my motivation for joining just now, so I could share the results of my own studies with others more of "like mind."