Seventh Day Adventist/Prophecy Question

[NowAlive]

(Thanks to Sing4Him for the guidance in where to put this question and for giving me some guidance in answering!)

I have been having a conversation with a Seventh Day Adventist member about prophecy and prophets. I explained that I do not see Ellen White as a prophet and that fails the test (for me) of the SDA giving true teachings. He responded by asking me if prophecy then ended with the Book of Revelation even though there are passages saying there will be prophecies, visions, dreams, etc (he referenced passages in several books - Ephesians, Joel, Amos, and Corinthians) from both men and women.

I'm stuck and would really appreciate your views/help.

Blessings,

Jon

[Sing4Him]

Prophecy (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10)

There is a big debate today about whether the gift of prophecy still exists. There are people who want to say that prophecy has passed away, based on 1 Corinthians 13:8. They say that prophecy has been done away because the perfect thing has come (i.e., the Bible). When the Bible was finished, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge passed away. Now, that is usually a viewpoint given in order to eliminate tongues. But when they have eliminated tongues, they also have to eliminate prophecy and knowledge because they are in the same verse. I believe that poses some very serious problems. However, we will assume that prophecy has not been done away with.

1. THE PROCLAMATION OF PROPHECY

The Greek word for prophecy is propheteia, from the verb propheteuo. It is a basic word coming from pro = "before," and phemi = "to speak." It means "to speak before." It does not mean "to speak before" in terms of time, but "to speak before" in terms of an audience (i.e., "to speak in public, to publicly proclaim"). That is the gift of prophecy. It is not necessarily revelatory (i.e., revelation direct from God), or nonrevelatory (i.e., proclaiming something God already revealed in the past). It is simply a communicative gift. The idea of predicting the future was only an English addition to the word from the Middle Ages. A Greek or a Hebrew knew that prophecy simply meant "to speak publicly."

Now, what is the gift of prophecy? It is the ability given by the Spirit of God to a person to proclaim God's truth to others. First Corinthians 14:3 says, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men...." There, in very simple terms, is a definition of the gift: He speaks unto men God's word. I wish that the Bible translated the word "proclaiming." It is the gift of proclaiming, the gift of speaking before men.

2. THE PRIORITY OF PROPHECY

a. In Time

There has never been a time in the history of God's dealing with men that someone hasn't had this gift, because at all times God had someone speaking His word.

1) The Past

a) The Old Testament

For example, the Old Testament abounds with uses of the enablement to prophesy. The primary function of the Old Testament prophets was to proclaim God's word. Some of it was future proclamation, some of it was present proclamation, and some of it was reiteration of past proclamation. Very often the prophets would speak about what God had done. Prophecy was not just prediction -- that was only one-third of its capacity. It was simply the gift of proclaiming God's truth and speaking God's word.

I am confident that prophets and the gift of prophecy ranked number one in the Old Testament. It was the most critical aspect because the Old Testament was the composite of that prophecy. It is what God proclaimed that was recorded. In fact, Peter comments regarding the Old Testament: "For the prophecy came not at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet. 1:21). The entire Old Testament is a proclamation of God.

b) The New Testament

In the New Testament, prophecy was just as vital because God was not through revealing Himself. He disclosed all of the mysteries (Eph. 1:9), He made known to the Apostles His will (Col. 1:9), and the Spirit of God brought into their remembrance all that Jesus told them so they could write it down (Jn. 14:26). The New Testament writers claimed they were inspired by God. When the whole of the New Testament was complete, it too was a proclamation from God. In fact, in Revelation 1:3 John says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy...." What does that mean? Simply, the proclaiming of God's truth.

So, in the Old Testament, the most vital thing was that the people proclaim God's truth. In the New Testament, the most vital thing was that the people proclaim God's truth.:nod

2) The Present

In addition, I believe in this post-New Testament age, that the most vital thing is people proclaiming God's truth. I don't think it has changed at all -- that is still what God desires.

a) 1 Corinthians 14:1 -- "Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." This is vital. When you come together as a congregation, desire for prophecy to be the gift that is used.

b) 1 Corinthians 14:39 -- "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." When they came together, all that they were doing was speaking with tongues. Tongues had a place, but they needed to quit doing that all the time and desire to exercise prophecy. Why? It is the most vital because it is a proclamation of God's truth.

b. In Ministry

Prophecy is also vital because it ministers...

1) To Believers

First Corinthians 14:3 says, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort." Prophecy ministers to believers in those three ways.

2) To Unbelievers

First Corinthians 14:24-25 says, "But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth." Paul is saying, "When you all come together and babble in these tongues, the people who come into your midst think you have lost your mind. But if you will prophesy, when they come in, they will listen and be convicted. As a result, they will fall on their face, repent, and believe."

Prophecy, then, ministers to believers and unbelievers. That is why Paul encourages them to be exercising that gift.

3. THE PRESENTATION OF PROPHECY

Now, I don't feel that we can restrict this only to revelation. Sometimes, when the people spoke proclamation, they were reiterating something already revealed. They certainly couldn't preach the gospel as direct revelation -- it had already been given. If they were giving the gospel to unbelievers, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, they would simply have been reiterating something God had already revealed. So, we conclude that prophecy can fall into one of two categories: revelation or reiteration.

a. Revelation

1) The Definition Disclosed

What is revelation? It is disclosing something never before disclosed, saying something never said, knowing something never known. Sometimes a prophet opened his mouth and spoke something never said before. It came right out of the mind of God -- divine revelation that became Scripture. And what they said could also have been a practical word from God that isn't recorded in Scripture.

2) The Delivery Demonstrated

a) In the Old Testament

Here is the common Old Testament usage: Ezekiel said, "Moreover, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying" (Ezk. 7:1). When the word of the Lord came to Amos, he said, "The lion hath roared; who will not fear? The Lord GOD hath spoken; who can but prophesy?" (Am. 3:8). Jeremiah said, "...But His word was in mine heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones..." (Jer. 20:9b). This was revelation -- God pouring His word through the prophet. But, there were other times when a prophet preached a message which God had already given. There were occasions in the Old Testament when the prophets simply reiterated something that was common knowledge.

b) In the New Testament

Sometimes, the New Testament prophet, or Apostle, exercised the gift of prophecy. He might receive divine revelation and speak something for the first time. Other times he would repeat something that had been said. Sometimes the prophecy was doctrinal, sometimes it was practical.

For example, a group of elders came together to set apart Timothy for the ministry and laid their hands on him (1 Tim. 1:18; 4:14). Paul says, "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands..." (1 Tim. 4:14). On that occasion, when they commissioned Timothy, someone probably received a prophecy from God. There were multiple prophecies regarding his life (1 Tim. 1:18). That is another case of direct revelation. Some of that direct revelation then was scriptural, some of it was practical. Some of it was also practical for a believing community. In Acts 11:27-30, a prophet named Agabus prophesied a famine. As a result, some Christians sent relief to those who would be oppressed by the famine.

So, prophecy is revelatory. There were times, during the era of the writing of Scripture, when God spoke directly through the prophet His word. There was no way that these prophecies could ever have been known because they had never yet been said.

b. Reiteration

1) The Point of Prophecy

Prophecy can also be reiteration. I don't think anyone can say that no one has the gift of speaking before people. If they insist, then what do you call my gift? We would have to come up with a new name for it. Proclamation is as good a word as any. The point of prophecy is not that it is always revelatory, the point of prophecy is given in Revelation 19:10: "...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." In other words, the heart of all proclamation is Christ. Someone who proclaims or gives testimony for Christ is fulfilling the spirit of prophecy.

2) The Proof of Prophecy

Now, there are some people who insist that prophecy has ceased. The word itself means "to speak before." This is still going on. There are still people today who have the ability to speak before others to proclaim God's Word. By its very simplicity, prophecy has the possibility of broad implications. For example:

a) 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21 -- The last few verses of 1 Thessalonians 5 have been done a terrible injustice because of the way it is organized. It consists of short phrases with seemingly no connection: "Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In everything give thanks..." (vv. 16-18a). We don't connect them, but they are connected. In the original writings of the New Testament there were no paragraphs or verses, and there wasn't much punctuation. So, we can read verses 19-21 this way, "Quench not the Spirit, despise not prophesyings, prove all things; hold fast that which is good." This is very interesting. He says, "Don't hate prophesyings." Why? If you do, you will quench the Spirit (v. 19). Why? The Spirit has given prophecy. Don't just throw it out, but test it and hold on to what is good (v. 21). The Spirit has given people to the church who proclaim. Don't quench the Spirit by despising the gift; just examine the prophecy and hold on to what is good.

You say, "But, how do we examine them?"

b) 1 Corinthians 14:37 -- "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." What are the things that Paul has written? The commandments of the Lord -- the New Testament Epistles. So he says, "If anybody claims to be a prophet, and he prophesies, judge him by the written Word." Don't despise prophesying, that would quench the Spirit. Simply test it, find out what is good. And what is the test? How do you know if a prophet is right or wrong? If he agrees with the Bible, he is right; if he doesn't, he is wrong. That is the test.

c) Romans 12:6 -- "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith." Other gifts are mentioned in the following verses. Interestingly enough, not one of the gifts mentioned is miraculous in nature. But prophecy is included with this list. All of the gifts that are miraculous in nature are listed in 1 Corinthians 12. None of those listed in Romans 12 are miraculous in nature, yet prophecy is included here also. This shows me that prophecy can be miraculous in the revelatory sense, or in the sense of proclaiming what has already been revealed. So, prophecy is included in both groups.

Notice that verse 6 says, "...let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith." The word "proportion" means "the measured out, the limit." In other words, that is all there is, there isn't any more. It is the proper proportion.

Now, many people think that "according to the proportion of faith" means "whatever proportion of faith God has given -- the ability to believe God." No. The definite article is present in the Greek, so the verse says, "...according to the measured out amount of the faith." If you are going to prophesy, be sure your prophecy agrees with the already revealed body of truth called "the faith."

So, the nonrevelatory aspect of prophecy is seen in a list of gifts that are nonmiraculous, although they are supernatural as energized by the Spirit. Paul is saying that if you have the gift of prophecy, then be sure you prophecy according to the proportion of the faith that has already been revealed (i.e., the Word of God). The exact same construction of faith is used in Jude 3: "...contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." "The faith" is the revealed truth -- not our subjective faith, but objective faith -- that is to be the criteria upon which the gift of prophecy, in its nonrevelatory sense, functions.

Prophecy is proclaiming. It was revelatory at one period of time, but when the Bible was finished, Revelation 22:18 says, "...If any man shall add unto these things [the words of this book], God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." The revelatory aspect is finished. It belonged to the infancy of the church and concluded at the closing of the canon of Scripture. It ceased at that point. The nonrevelatory reiteration continues. And we can thank God that throughout the history of the church, there have been great proclaimers of Christ...and there still are today. http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg1853.htm

[Sing4Him]

Jon :wave

Take a look at this carefully.

Joel 2:1--
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand

In reading the above, we can see what time this scripture is referring to. "The Day of the Lord Cometh" (also a call to repentance!)

The Day of the Lord referrs to the tribulation period.

This becomes even clearer when we continue our reading of this particular scripture. It is not only shocking but also horrifying.

Judgment!:
...day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness.....A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness:yea, and nothing shall escape them....etc..

Then-- we see God's moving and love for beloved Israel:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions Joel 2:27-28

When is this occurring? We see this in the very first verse.

This same scripture is referred to in Acts 2 by Peter-- the meaning does not change.

[NowAlive]

This is wonderful, thank you Sing4Him. :hat

I can frame my reply to him much better now. This has cleared up my thinking a lot!

:thumb