Church with No Name, 2x2's, etc.

[Kliska]

consider the source of the information. you never know. I personally do not know anything about them. Just be careful and prayerful.

Yes, consider the info for sure! There are several books out there from ex-2x2's as well, for more info. I, of course, can't judge anyone's salvation; however, I can say I would never recommend someone join their congregation, even from what I've seen and experienced first-hand.

[Matthew15:13]

My late mother-in-law belonged to such a group. I didn't see any problem with it. Their beliefs were strongly Bible based.

[formermember]

I was born and raised in this church and spent 25 years of my life going to meetings as a professing person (their terminology to describe a member of the fellowship).

I would be more then happy to answer any and all questions people might have...

I will reply to specific portions of all the previous posts below...





My question: is this a cult?

That term is quite offensive to members of the fellowship and many would be shocked to have their church called a cult.

I think you will find many outsiders and former members are ok will calling it a cult in the same way one might call the LDS church a cult or the JW's church a cult.

However, I don't believe it would be fair to call it a cult in the same way you would call jamestown or waco a cult...

Most believe, as I did as a professing person, that all other Christian churches are false and all other Christian preachers are false... and if someone is truly honest and sincere that God will lead them to their fellowship.

I asked her if they had a "label" for themeselves. She said no, because the earliest NT church didn't have a distinct "label."

Label as in church name? Then yes... you are correct.

However there are many labels in the fellowship and they have their own terminology...

The preachers are called workers
The members are called friends
The services are called meetings
The annual gatherings are called conventions
The fellowship is referred to as "the truth", "the way", and "the fellowship"
The term professing refers to full members of the group
It is uncommon to use the Christian or saved
All other Christian churches are referred to as "worldly"

They aren't always in a home, sometimes they gather at a building in the community.

There are different kinds of services...

Sunday morning meetings are always held in homes (except for conventions and/or very unusual situations, such as on a fishing or skiing trip)

Sunday evening and wednesday night meetings occur in the homes as well and take place if there are no gospel meetings in the area.

Gospel meetings are held in halls, schools, libraries, and other public places.

Special meetings are annual and are held in similar locations to Gospel meetings.

Conventions are annual four day events that take place on farms or different locations where most members stay on site for the full four days.

Sunday nights was always preaching when I went.

This was a Gospel meeting... Gospel meetings are a typical service and differ to the meetings held in the homes.

Order of a Gospel meeting -

1. hymn sung
2. worker prays
3. hymn sung
4. first worker speaks
5. hymn sung
6. second worker speaks
7. worker prays

Order of a home meeting

1. the elder (male owner of the home) or a worker starts by taking a hymn request
2. hymn is sung
3. another hymn is sung or prayer time starts
4. during prayer time, professing people randomly say a prayer out loud
5. another hymn is sung
6. testimony time - professing people take part in randomly sharing a short (1 to 4 minutes) thought or part. This usually takes place by the person standing to their feet. No discussion ever takes place... ever...
7. after testimony, another hymn is sung
8. emblems - someone first prays for the bread
9. bread is passed around and only those who have been baptized by the workers take part
10. another prayer for the blood (juice normally) and it is passed around as well
11. final hymn is sung

Some groups/individuals are less/more strict on this. One girl I knew wore a skirt even when playing volleyball on the school team, with shorts underneath. My friend would wear pants if we were going bike riding/rambling, or in the woods, running on the track team.

I take issue with the phrase, "some groups"... it's all one big group...

It is quite common in some more liberal areas for girls to wear pants to schools or what not... however, in some areas it is very much against the "rules" in all situations...

A female member of the fellowship never wears pants to a meeting...

Well...it doesn't really have one "leader" as most cults do.

there are different "leaders" for different areas... the workers have a hidden, but well established hierarchy... head workers for different states are called overseers..

They pray to God, just as other mainline Christian denominations do. They read their Bible, usually daily. They preach the Bible. They believe in adult baptism.

Most disagree with the idea that Jesus is God the Son

It is very common for converts who have been baptized in other churches to be rebaptized by the workers, since they believe they are the only true preachers of God on earth...

If an adult kid goes on to another church, they still talk to them, interact.

those who left the fellowship are viewed as lost sheep who need to return to "the fold" (their church)...

I, being a former member, am no doubt viewed as someone who was not willing and who took my own way and forsook God's only true fellowship and his only True way (their fellowship).

I've heard that they may not believ in the Trinity as mainline churches understand it.

when I was in my early twenties I had someone ask me if we believed in the trinity... I didn't even know what the word meant... MOST do NOT believe in the trinity and view it as some strange or false catholic teaching.

They often argue that the word trinity is not in the bible and the bible clearly states that Jesus was the SON of God and not God himself...

Here are some worker quotes on the trinity

DAN HILTON: The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985]

DAN HILTON: Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996]

SYDNEY HOLT: The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence. [1980]

Jesus is united with God but is not God. I don't see that Jesus is God in the scripture. [Post Falls ID 1985]

From http://www.thelyingtruth.net/quotes/w_trinity.htm

The way it was explained to me by her (my friend) was that a "worker" has to say when you are ready to become a Christian.

It's commonly believed that one professes through the workers ministry... and to be come a follower of Christ, one must go through God's messengers on earth (the workers).

their preaching is mainline too.

It might appear to be mainline... but the more you dig the more you find out it is not...

Their preachers are basically un-married run-of-the-mill believers who feel called to preach.

People offer up for the work... then the workers accept or deny them entry into the ministry...

Formal training or education in seminary is strongly opposed...

workers go to different areas in pairs and live, for the rest of their lives, out of a suitcase... they stay in the homes for the members a few nights at a time...

all needs are met through the members... no formal giving is set up... offerings or paid preaching is strongly opposed.

As my friend travelled, she could stay with members every where she went.

When I was 12 we sent to south africa for three weeks for vacation... we stayed in a hotel only one night... the rest of the time we stayed in the homes of members, whom we never had met before...


PLEASE FELL FREE TO ASK ME ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FELLOWSHIP.....

[Betty]

Does the group believe it should limit itself to 20 members? I ask this because a lady that went to our Church joined a group that will not allow more then 20 members. She had to wait until one quit to join.
betty

[formermember]

Does the group believe it should limit itself to 20 members?

not at all... in my town of 300,000 there is about 100+ members that break up into about 6 sunday morning meetings.

Most of the time, one's sunday morning meeting is between 10 to 30 people...

however, this differs from place to place depending on how many members are in that area....

I ask this because a lady that went to our Church joined a group that will not allow more then 20 members. She had to wait until one quit to join.
betty

That is very weird and would not happen in the 2x2 church.

[Betty]

I have not seen her in a couple of years. Her and her husband were hard workers in the Church and the youth leader for years. He left her for another woman and she left the Church. It is a shame when the devil attacks those who are working for the Lord.

[Kliska]

I was born and raised in this church and spent 25 years of my life going to meetings as a professing person (their terminology to describe a member of the fellowship).

I would be more then happy to answer any and all questions people might have...

Glad to have you in the thread!

Label as in church name? Then yes... you are correct.

Yep, that's what I was referring to.

Sunday evening and wednesday night meetings occur in the homes as well and take place if there are no gospel meetings in the area.

The only ones I've went to are the Sunday evening services. They were not in someone's home, and I was invited the a Wed. night meeting, and it was in a public building as well. Could this vary from area to area too?

I take issue with the phrase, "some groups"... it's all one big group...

Yes, I do realize it is one big group, but in certain areas of the state, it appears they are more or less liberal. Hence, there are informal groups within the big formal one, as you've stated.

Most disagree with the idea that Jesus is God the Son

Do you know how they get around such teaching as was found in John (i.e. the Word was God)?

I, being a former member, am no doubt viewed as someone who was not willing and who took my own way and forsook God's only true fellowship and his only True way (their fellowship).

Would you mind sharing your personal story of how you came out of the fellowship?

PLEASE FELL FREE TO ASK ME ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FELLOWSHIP.....

Thank you! You're post has already helped me understand a bit more!

[formermember]

The only ones I've went to are the Sunday evening services. They were not in someone's home, and I was invited the a Wed. night meeting, and it was in a public building as well. Could this vary from area to area too?

The only thing that varies is Sunday night meetings (in the homes)... some areas have them and others do not...

When there are workers in your area, then there are most likely gospel meetings... which are the public ones held in halls, schools, and such. This is what you attended.

When there are not workers in the area, say they are visiting another part of the state or are on convention rounds, then Sunday night meetings and Wednesday night meetings (those held in the homes) take the place of gospel meetings... These are often referred to as bible study...



Yes, I do realize it is one big group, but in certain areas of the state, it appears they are more or less liberal. Hence, there are informal groups within the big formal one, as you've stated.

Yes... in some areas the church is more or less liberal... in some places wearing jeans to meetings is a big no no.... while in other areas it's shrugged off... in some areas playing sports is looked down on, while in other areas it's not...

Liberal or not, it's often easy to spot a professing women... in that it is rare to see a women with the following... no make-up, dress, no ear rings, long hair (most of the time up), and no other jewelry... most often women of other faiths might have a dress on, but have a neckless or something like that... when you see all of these in combination, there's a good chance she could be professing...



Do you know how they get around such teaching as was found in John (i.e. the Word was God)?

I do not recall the argument for these specific verses that they might use... however, a common response is the fact that Jesus is referred to as the Son of God and so how could he be both the Son and the Father (i know.. i know...).

They often ask you WHOM did Jesus say he was...



Would you mind sharing your personal story of how you came out of the fellowship?

Here is a very short answer...

I was a true believer... I believed all of you were "worldly" christians who were not willing for God's true way... I believed that I was born into a special fellowship and if I worked at being worthy and being true to the end that I might have hope of salvation after death... Jesus was believed to have come to earth to show us how to live... the perfect example who became our savior because he was obedient and denied his human nature... and if we could follow in his footsteps and work hard at denying our selves (worldly pleasures) that we too might be worthy of salvation (which could be lost at any moment depending on our thoughts and actions)...

in 2000 I stumbled across websites dealing with the fellowship... this Shocked me.... totally shocked me... it took me a year to even accept the idea that our fellowship had NOT gone back to the time of Jesus and there had not been workers and friends down through the ages (this was just assumed on my part throughout my life)... but instead that the fellowship was founded by a man in 1897... after that I started to read more and more and saw more and more of the differences between what I was hearing in meeting and what the bible said... in late 2001 I started attending church services while also attending gospel meetings during the same day (church at 11 and meeting at 4)... the differences really set in and I slowly fell away and stopped going to meetings.

But let me very clear... leaving is not easy.... most of my family and friends were professing, and by leaving I was breaking a special bond with them. Also the social aspect of the fellowship is very strong...

I am no doubt viewed as someone who has lost his way, fallen away, was unwilling, or was bitter against "the truth" for whatever reason...

I am still in contact with professing people and seem them regularly... however, the relationship I've had with these people for most of my life is not what it once was...

It is believed professing people are God’s only true children and the fellowship is God’s only true way… By leaving meetings you rejected not only the fellowship but God’s plan, people, and kingdom. They believe you know where to go if you want God back into your life (meetings), and so they have little or no obligation to you since you know the right path to take to return to God’s fold.

Also, since people are told since birth that God's true servent preachers will be homeless, go out in pairs, and not get a paycheck, its very hard for people to look at Christian preachers without thinking of these things... same goes for churches that have church buildings... the bible says God dwells not in temples made with hands... which is the main argument against church buildings.


Thank you! You're post has already helped me understand a bit more!

there is much more then what I've stated... so if there are any other questions or if I confused anyone, please let me know....

[formermember]

To give you a better idea of some of their teachings and how it differs from mainstream churches, I've listed out some worker quotes below...





LEO STANCLIFF: My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don't have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit. [1981]

JOHN BETH: Oftentimes we come into contact with people of the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33-1/2 years giving His life to make plain and clear to this world once and for all what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God. [1968]

HOWARD MOONEY: It is the life, not the blood that, saves you. [Salmon Arm, BC, Canada 1966]

WALTER POLLOCK: Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment. [Spokane WA 1983]

JACK CARROLL: You can tell whether a church is a false church or not if it was started by a man or woman. We are the only church on earth that was started by Christ.

WILLIE DONALDSON: What makes us different from other people in the world is that we have God with us..."Hallelujah, Praise the Lord!" is empty service, without meaning or expression when said in churches. [Olympia #1 WA Conv 1979]

WILLIAM PETERSON: The church in the home is a part of Jesus, just as the ministry is a part of Jesus, and you cannot have the blood of Jesus without accepting all of Jesus...The truth is the two-and-two ministry and the church meeting in the home. [Letter to Cherie Kropp dated 12/15/90]

JACK CARROLL: The emblem of the cross is a Catholic tradition. It was not used by the early Christians. They hated the cross. To them it meant suffering and shame. It is a murder weapon. Would any of you ever wear a gun around your neck for a decoration?

THAROLD SYLVESTER: The religious world puts emphasis on (the) death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, to serve, to love, invest time. [Devon MT 6/25/78]

DALE BORS: It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979]

THAROLD SYLVESTER: God wants faith, not facts. We aren't saved by what we believe, we are saved by having the right SPIRIT.

WILLIE JAMIESON: You rich professing people will have to learn to keep your hands out of your pockets and you educated people have to learn to keep your mouths shut! [Chelan WA Conv 1954]

DAN HILTON: Parents, don't sacrifice your children on the altar of education. [1979]

WILLIE JAMIESON: Two Lords, Jesus and God. But they are not one God. Jesus had a sinful nature but did not sin. His blood came from Mary, the seed of David. Jesus was not baptized to make Him God's Son, He was already God's Son. He wanted to give to the world the example of being dead to the world and himself and all false religions. When we believe in Jesus we are believing in God's standard. [Walla Walla WA 1960]

HOWARD MOONEY: An unrighteous person is one who doesn't worship God in the right way or think right thoughts. [Walla Walla WA Conv 1959]

SUSAN WEICHERT: God is our Father and Jesus is our elder brother. God is supreme. He and the Son planned Jesus' coming. If just the blood was all that was needed, then Jesus could have died as a baby. It is the manner of His life that we need to see. The Lord has given the perfect way. His Spirit is like the road signs. It will guide us. [Spokane WA 1981]

D. MIDDLETON: Grace only can help people in a moment. Grace to help in time of need. God can't help someone unless he is trying himself. God helps those that help themselves. [Devon MT 1977]

MIKE THORSTEINSON: Salvation by total grace implies that man need do nothing before or after. [1983]

JACKIE MEEKS: Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way. He learned obedience through suffering. We can do the same. Obedience resulted in Jesus being made perfect. Our salvation results in obedience to the Father. [Post Falls ID 1972]

JEFF REID: People say if you don't say Jesus is God you are a cult. Jesus is deity in that He was Godlike. He is the Son of God and has the character of His Father. [1984]

JUDY TINKLEPAUGH: Jesus knew that His flesh could keep Him from going to Calvary. [Anchorage AK 1970]

WARREN WAINWRIGHT: We do believe in the blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The blood is part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators. [Boring OR 1988]

ARNOLD BLONKE: I have a list that is growing of friends that are attending hockey games, causing them to worship the idols of this world. [Glen Valley BC Canada 8/4/88]

ELDON TENNISWOOD: 1 Timothy 2: 8-9 - we know that this is a trial. There are certain streaks of vanity in women. The thing that attracts people the most to God's Way is to have a good conscience towards God. Diamond rings are costly array. Humble people will always obey. [Milltown WA Conv 8/28/88]

WALTER BURKINSHAW: God's servants are interpreters, interpreting God's word into things they can understand. [Glen Valley BC Canada 8/15/88]

MAURICE CLOSE: You will retain your sin, if you reject this ministry. [Hector, MN 2004]

WALTER NELSON: No new birth without the human agency of the ministry. The ministry has a Master Key. [Boring OR 1967]

WILLIS PROPP: God's servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God. [Olympia #1 WA Conv 1979]

EVERETT SWANSON: We can always judge the state of a person's salvation by his attitude towards the Workers. [1985]

It is a dangerous thing to contradict the workers. [Glen Valley BC Canada Conv 1988]

ERNEST NELSON: We need to remember God doesn't just give us things, He expects something from us in return. [Post Falls ID 1967]

GARY RATHBUN: There are two different prices to be paid. The price paid by someone else for us and the price we must pay. [Devon MT 1977]

ROSE ELLA BEHREND: The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay. [Olympia WA 1970]

LAWRENCE BYRD: There is no easy way into the kingdom. The reason is because God wants a proven people. We are proven under adverse conditions. Don't presume on the mercy and love of God. [Walla Walla WA 10/25/70]

JOHN COOK This is our salvation that we are able to master ourselves. [Boston, MA]

NEILS JORGENSEN: It is done one stitch at a time and as you work on it the pattern takes shape. We have to work on our salvation daily and one bit at a time. Unless we work on it, it won't get done. [Walla Walla WA 1970]

[TheWorkman]

To give you a better idea of some of their teachings and how it differs from mainstream churches, I've listed out some worker quotes below...





LEO STANCLIFF: My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don't have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit. [1981]

JOHN BETH: Oftentimes we come into contact with people of the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33-1/2 years giving His life to make plain and clear to this world once and for all what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God. [1968]

HOWARD MOONEY: It is the life, not the blood that, saves you. [Salmon Arm, BC, Canada 1966]

WALTER POLLOCK: Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment. [Spokane WA 1983]

JACK CARROLL: You can tell whether a church is a false church or not if it was started by a man or woman. We are the only church on earth that was started by Christ.

WILLIE DONALDSON: What makes us different from other people in the world is that we have God with us..."Hallelujah, Praise the Lord!" is empty service, without meaning or expression when said in churches. [Olympia #1 WA Conv 1979]

WILLIAM PETERSON: The church in the home is a part of Jesus, just as the ministry is a part of Jesus, and you cannot have the blood of Jesus without accepting all of Jesus...The truth is the two-and-two ministry and the church meeting in the home. [Letter to Cherie Kropp dated 12/15/90]

JACK CARROLL: The emblem of the cross is a Catholic tradition. It was not used by the early Christians. They hated the cross. To them it meant suffering and shame. It is a murder weapon. Would any of you ever wear a gun around your neck for a decoration?

THAROLD SYLVESTER: The religious world puts emphasis on (the) death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, to serve, to love, invest time. [Devon MT 6/25/78]

DALE BORS: It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979]

THAROLD SYLVESTER: God wants faith, not facts. We aren't saved by what we believe, we are saved by having the right SPIRIT.

WILLIE JAMIESON: You rich professing people will have to learn to keep your hands out of your pockets and you educated people have to learn to keep your mouths shut! [Chelan WA Conv 1954]

DAN HILTON: Parents, don't sacrifice your children on the altar of education. [1979]

WILLIE JAMIESON: Two Lords, Jesus and God. But they are not one God. Jesus had a sinful nature but did not sin. His blood came from Mary, the seed of David. Jesus was not baptized to make Him God's Son, He was already God's Son. He wanted to give to the world the example of being dead to the world and himself and all false religions. When we believe in Jesus we are believing in God's standard. [Walla Walla WA 1960]

HOWARD MOONEY: An unrighteous person is one who doesn't worship God in the right way or think right thoughts. [Walla Walla WA Conv 1959]

SUSAN WEICHERT: God is our Father and Jesus is our elder brother. God is supreme. He and the Son planned Jesus' coming. If just the blood was all that was needed, then Jesus could have died as a baby. It is the manner of His life that we need to see. The Lord has given the perfect way. His Spirit is like the road signs. It will guide us. [Spokane WA 1981]

D. MIDDLETON: Grace only can help people in a moment. Grace to help in time of need. God can't help someone unless he is trying himself. God helps those that help themselves. [Devon MT 1977]

MIKE THORSTEINSON: Salvation by total grace implies that man need do nothing before or after. [1983]

JACKIE MEEKS: Jesus had a sinful nature and the potential is there for us to overcome our flesh if we walk in His Way. He learned obedience through suffering. We can do the same. Obedience resulted in Jesus being made perfect. Our salvation results in obedience to the Father. [Post Falls ID 1972]

JEFF REID: People say if you don't say Jesus is God you are a cult. Jesus is deity in that He was Godlike. He is the Son of God and has the character of His Father. [1984]

JUDY TINKLEPAUGH: Jesus knew that His flesh could keep Him from going to Calvary. [Anchorage AK 1970]

WARREN WAINWRIGHT: We do believe in the blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The blood is part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators. [Boring OR 1988]

ARNOLD BLONKE: I have a list that is growing of friends that are attending hockey games, causing them to worship the idols of this world. [Glen Valley BC Canada 8/4/88]

ELDON TENNISWOOD: 1 Timothy 2: 8-9 - we know that this is a trial. There are certain streaks of vanity in women. The thing that attracts people the most to God's Way is to have a good conscience towards God. Diamond rings are costly array. Humble people will always obey. [Milltown WA Conv 8/28/88]

WALTER BURKINSHAW: God's servants are interpreters, interpreting God's word into things they can understand. [Glen Valley BC Canada 8/15/88]

MAURICE CLOSE: You will retain your sin, if you reject this ministry. [Hector, MN 2004]

WALTER NELSON: No new birth without the human agency of the ministry. The ministry has a Master Key. [Boring OR 1967]

WILLIS PROPP: God's servants are the understanding Authority of the word of God. [Olympia #1 WA Conv 1979]

EVERETT SWANSON: We can always judge the state of a person's salvation by his attitude towards the Workers. [1985]

It is a dangerous thing to contradict the workers. [Glen Valley BC Canada Conv 1988]

ERNEST NELSON: We need to remember God doesn't just give us things, He expects something from us in return. [Post Falls ID 1967]

GARY RATHBUN: There are two different prices to be paid. The price paid by someone else for us and the price we must pay. [Devon MT 1977]

ROSE ELLA BEHREND: The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay. [Olympia WA 1970]

LAWRENCE BYRD: There is no easy way into the kingdom. The reason is because God wants a proven people. We are proven under adverse conditions. Don't presume on the mercy and love of God. [Walla Walla WA 10/25/70]

JOHN COOK This is our salvation that we are able to master ourselves. [Boston, MA]

NEILS JORGENSEN: It is done one stitch at a time and as you work on it the pattern takes shape. We have to work on our salvation daily and one bit at a time. Unless we work on it, it won't get done. [Walla Walla WA 1970]


Let me get this straight, are you saying that you agree with all these quotes?