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kenod
July 21st, 2007, 01:55 AM
ihop in k.c. led by mike bikle is this a cult??Alot of people getting drawn to this church they dont believe in the rapture??Some people from my church are drawn to it??

It depends on your definition of a "cult". One definition is "a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false". (Encarta - World English Dictionary)

Mike Bickle and IHOP believe in the infallibility of the Bible, the divinity of Jesus Christ, and that salvation is only through faith in the blood of Christ.

It is my opinion that any group which accepts those three truths is not a cult, even if we disagree with some of their other beliefs.

They do believe in a literal rapture, but they believe it is at the end of the tribulation. I think they are wrong on that, but being an unloving and unforgiving Christian is probably a lot more serious.

Some people think their emphasis on prayer is excessive - perhaps it is, but I wish I were that dedicated.

I recommend people go to the original source and not rely solely on second hand opinions which often misrepresent (unintentionally) the beliefs of those they are criticising.

Christy
July 21st, 2007, 05:35 AM
Mike Bickle is the director of the International House of Prayer of Kansas City, one of the most visible organizations of the 24-7 Prayer Movement. The Prayer Room has continued without stopping in intercession and worship since September 19, 1999. Over 400 people serve either full-time or part-time on the IHOP-KC staff. Each staff member is responsible with raising their own financial support in a missionary status.

This prayer room can now be accessed on the internet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for a charge of $10 per month. There are also some times of the week when free broadcasts are available. These are on Friday and Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings and evenings.

According to publicly available IRS Form 990 documents, IHOP had revenues exceeding $2.4 million in 2004. Bickle is closely associated with The Joseph Company, whose goals include "plundering the wealth of the world for their Lord."

Revelation 3:14-17.
1 Timothy 6:10
Romans 12:2
Luke 12:19-20


Mike Bickle has admitted that 80% of all modern prophecies are false, but that there is no need for great concern since (they believe) prophesying must be learned by Christians through trial and error, if you can believe that. In the coming decade, they are going to do much better, he assures us (and these men demand that we not judge them as false prophets, and if we do, we are going to reap the wrath of God!). According to Mike, God Himself said, "Wait till the nineties; wait till the year 2,000; wait till 2,010. You think the gift of prophecy's flowing--I will purify it because I said I would give it to My people."

Matthew 7:15-20
Isaiah 30:9-10

Latter Rain Teaching: Replacement Theology - The Church is Israel

2 Timothy 2:15

Latter Rain doctrine was founded by William Branham and if Mike Bickle has based his ministry on this man then it's clearly aberrant. 1 Corinthians 3:13

http://wayoflife.org/fbns/branham.htm

kenod
July 21st, 2007, 06:26 AM
"Latter rain" is such a broad term that it is difficult to limit it to any particular doctrines. What most groups have in common is a belief that in preparation for the rapture, God has been restoring the church to more closely resemble the early apostolic church described in Acts. The Pentecostal movement, which began early in the 20th century, then broadened into the charismatic movement which has impacted almost every denomination around the world. About 400 million claim to be charismatic Christians today.


Latter Rain teachings include: Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology, Progressive Revelation, Revival/Harvest, Joel’s Army, Replacement Theology, Post-Millennial Eschatology, Signs and Wonders, Territorial Warfare, Ecumenism, Restoration of Apostles and Prophets, Jubilee/Feast of Tabernacles, and the Post-denominational Church.

Comments such as this display an appalling ignorance for a Christian commentator, and a failure to distinguish the diverse threads which have emerged among a plethora of different groups. Lumping all these ideas together for the sake of convenience is intellectual laziness.

William Branham was the "father" of the post WW2 revival. His primary emphasis was healing and the Scriptural gifts in the church. He did not advocate the numerous doctrines that have been lumped under the "Latter Rain" label.

Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements:



"The person universally acknowledged as the [post WW2] revival’s 'father' and 'pacesetter' was William Branham. The sudden appearance of his miraculous healing campaigns in 1946 set off a spiritual explosion in the Pentecostal movement which was to move to Main Street, U.S.A., by the 1950s and give birth to the broader charismatic movement in the 1960s, which currently affects almost every denomination in the country. ... As the pacesetter of the healing revival, Branham was the primary source of inspiration in the development of other healing ministries. He inspired hundreds of ministers to enter the healing ministry and a multitude of evangelists paid tribute to him for the impact he had upon their work.

Christy
July 21st, 2007, 07:26 AM
Taken directly from the source:

http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Articl...?ID=1000010561


The Latter Rain
WE AFFIRM the Church will experience the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in history before Jesus returns (Joel 2:28–32).

This is just so wrong. We are told to rightfully divide the Word of Truth in 2 Timothy 2:15. Latter Rain theology = Replacement theology = The Church is Israel. The advent spoke of in Joel 2:28-32 will clearly occur in Israel in the time of the Tribulation and those unbelievers during this time (both Jews & Gentiles throughout the world) who choose to repent and turn to God through Jesus Christ the Messiah will be saved. One can easily see that he believes in a tribulation rapture of sorts here and his great revival/harvest plan plainly falls in line with this. He makes no distinction between the Church and Israel and clearly doesn't adhere to 2 Timothy 2:15 as we are commanded to do.


This outpouring will result in a great ingathering of souls and a renewing of the Church so that it walks in godliness as declared in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7).

Yes in it's rightful context and correct timeline as stated in the Bible. This one's for the Tribulation saints/believers.


We affirm the presence of the 5–fold ministry for the equipping of the saints (Ephesians 4:11–13).

The Fivefold ministry is clearly unbiblical and so is spiritual warfare. Can you please state scripture where it states where we as christians are to partake in spiritual warfare (which is part of the fivefold ministry)?


WE DENY the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.

This is vague. What are these specifically? Can someone please list them?


Explanation: Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. We have had no relationship at all to this past movement.

This man speaks with forked tongue. Latter Rain is Latter Rain and to deny any of it's doctrines, one has to be specific in stating which doctrines of the Latter Rain one is clearly denying here, as Latter Rain as founded by William Branham in the 1940s and popularized in the 1950s is clearly based on Joel 2 alone. That's where Branham discovered the latter rain doctrine, it's what latter rain is based on. Period. Go to any Latter Rain website and you'll see this, but they won't necessarily believe in MSOG or Joel's Army as being the Army of God, yet they are clear New Apostolic Reformation adherents.


We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation.

Yet the Bible tells us to be separate from the world. Can you please provide scripture where it states that we are to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation? As far as I'm concerned, the Bible and politics don't don't mix, no matter how hard I try to see otherwise, it basically all boils down to the fact that our Kingdom is not of this world.

In stating the above, one can see this guy's (Mike Bickle) clear liberalism basically because no ideology has more lofty ideals than what we call liberalism. A true liberal longs for social justice, an end to racial oppression, poverty, war, etc. Liberalism rightfully demands that wealth be shared by all of society to some degree. To its credit most great reforms that have made life better for millions of people have come about as the result of liberalism. Today liberals often champion the cause of ending homelessness. Who can be opposed to that? They long for a system of guaranteed health care for all citizens. Who can be against that? Yet liberalism is an ideology without means.

As the Bible tells us :

1 Corinthians 5:6
Galatians 5:9

So in effect Mike Bickle's IHOP ministry is weighed in light of the scripture and found wanting in 3 instances:

1) Mid Tribulation rapture
2) Not rightfully dividing the word of Truth (The Bible)
3) Liberal theology.

This is over and above all the false prophecies he has made.


God has been restoring the church to more closely resemble the early apostolic church described in Acts.

This is unscriptural because nowhere in the Bible does it state that the church is to restore itself.


About 400 million claim to be charismatic Christians today.

So much for following the narrow way.


Lumping all these ideas together for the sake of convenience is intellectual laziness.
You mean like this:
Quote from IHOP site:

WE DENY the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.

They clearly haven't stated what those "distinctive" doctrines are, especially in lieu of the fact that most people don't know what Latter Rain doctrines are, so it leaves the door wide open to speculation.


The latter rain. The term "Latter Rain" stems from Bible passages as Jeremiah 3:3 [5] and 5:23-25 [6], Joel 2:23 [7], Hosea 6:3[8], Zechariah 10:1, and James 5:7. The idea of a "Latter Rain" was not new to the movement, but in fact was present from the earliest days of Pentecostalism, who believed at the time that return of speaking in tongues and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit marked the "Latter Rain" of God's Spirit, near the end of history. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost had been the "former rain" that established the Church, but the current "move" of the Spirit was the "latter rain" that would bring the Church's work to completion, and culminate in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which was and is imminent. Although this doctrine in itself had been around since Parham and the early Pentecostals, the Latter Rain broke with the dispensationalism which had become entrenched in the ranks of Pentecostalism, this is a pessimistic premillennialism; the Latter Rain emphasized victory all the way to the end. This led to various expressions of victorious-minded premillennialism and ultimately postmillennialism. Rather than just try and save a few souls before rise of the anti-Christ, the Latter Rain emphasized the Church as overcoming and victorious in the fact that the church would come into "full stature" as taught by Apostle Paul. This shift alone is extremely significant and can be seen in most branches of the Charismatic movement.
The Sacrifice of Praise. Latter rain had a major emphasis on worship. Teaching on the Tabernacle of David and its restoration is a major theme. Dancing, Lifting of hands and spontaneous praise are marks of this movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Rain_Movement

kenod
July 21st, 2007, 08:14 AM
Well, I'm glad to see that the original source is now being consulted.

After that it just becomes a matter of Scriptural interpretation ... and your personal beliefs.

If people want to throw out the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11-12) and the spirtual gifts (1 Cor 12:7-11), that is their choice. Personally, I believe in everything that God placed in the Church.

Better to avoid Wikipedia because that is compiled by any nutcase who has a computer ... and that includes me! :hehee

Christy
July 21st, 2007, 08:22 AM
If people want to throw out the five-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11-12) and the spirtual gifts (1 Cor 12:7-11), that is their choice.

Pure semantics. This is purely your (and Latter Rain's) interpretation of scripture. So shall we disregard anything and everything that doesn't agree with your/their view? And if the spiritual gifts are still appropriate for today - then why is Mike Bickle making so many false prophecies?


that is compiled by any nutcase who has a computer .

So does that mean we must also throw out any Google or You Tube video that depicts Mike Bickle prophesying falsely?

With all due respect Kenod, why must we believe only what you've said and nothing else, i.e., Wikipedia, apologetic websites, Google video, You Tube, etc?

It's clear that Latter Rain threw out Dispensationalism a long time ago - their reason for being unable to rightly divide the Word of Truth, which leaves a lot to be desired.


Well, I'm glad to see that the original source is now being consulted.
Matthew 7:16........... you shall know them by their fruit.

(Disclaimer: PLEASE NOTE : All that is said on this particular post is said without any hint of strife or sarcasm).

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you would answer the questions on my previous post.

Thanks.

kenod
July 21st, 2007, 09:21 AM
Pure semantics. This is purely your (and Latter Rain's) interpretation of scripture. So shall we disregard anything and everything that doesn't agree with your/their view? And if the spiritual gifts are still appropriate for today - then why is Mike Bickle making so many false prophecies?

I am not a supporter of Mike Bickle, and I do not believe he is a prophet. However, I do believe that he, and those at IHOP, are just as much Christians as you and me, and I think we can all learn something from each other.


So does that mean we must also throw out any Google or You Tube video that depicts Mike Bickle prophesying falsely?

Definitely not ... but, it must be taken in complete context and judged fairly. If he's wrong, then he's wrong. I've got no argument with that.


With all due respect Kenod, why must we believe only what you've said and nothing else, i.e., Wikipedia, apologetic websites, Google video, You Tube, etc?

Oh please don't believe what I say ... it is just my personal understanding. If you can't see it in the Bible, then don't believe it. (BTW, I am a contributor to Wikipedia :) )

I am a great believer in checking everything I read on an "apologetics" website with the original source. I have seen too many misunderstandings and misrepresentations to just accept everything at face value.


It's clear that Latter Rain threw out Dispensationalism a long time ago - their reason for being unable to rightly divide the Word of Truth, which leaves a lot to be desired.

There are many who see the "Latter Rain" as the Pentecostal/charismatic movement ... and many of those are Scofield dispensationalists (like me!)



Matthew 7:16........... you shall know them by their fruit.

(Disclaimer: PLEASE NOTE : All that is said on this particular post is said without any hint of strife or sarcasm).

I appreciate that.



BTW, I'd appreciate it if you would answer the questions on my previous post.

Thanks.

I'm not sure that a debate of the Scriptures will be that helpful. All I can say is that we know God placed the five ministries and the nine spiritual gifts in the original Church. I just can't see where He took them away. If you can, then you go with that.

Personally, I see these things in the Scriptures, and I have seen them in operation, so it will be a hard job to persuade me they are wrong. Of course we must try the spirits because not everyone is what they claim to be.

Christy
July 23rd, 2007, 05:10 AM
I do believe that he, and those at IHOP, are just as much Christians as you and me, and I think we can all learn something from each other.

I agree with you : Mike Bickle is a christian, albeit one that is in error and what we can learn from that is not to go down the same path. My wish is for people like these to see their error and repent. And the point is not to look at man but to God.


I am a great believer in checking everything I read on an "apologetics" website with the original source.

Ditto. Some deception or error is more subtle and vague though and many people can't see it for what it is.


Definitely not ... but, it must be taken in complete context and judged fairly

Well if it doesn't tie in with God-given scripture - then how fair is fair?


Oh please don't believe what I say ... it is just my personal understanding

I know.


and many of those are Scofield dispensationalists (like me!)

Can you please elaborate on that?


All I can say is that we know God placed the five ministries and the nine spiritual gifts in the original Church

The keyword here being "original". That was to build the foundation of the church, to confirm it. The Jews always required a sign and still do to this very day, but Jesus said that the only sign he'll give us is the "Sign of Jonah". The first Pentecost began in Israel, so shall the 2nd one as depicted in Acts 2 and Revelation 6. "First the Jew, then the Gentile". There are however 3 gifts that still remain : Faith, Hope & Love, with Love being eternal as God is Love. You will notice that when the Old Testament ended there was approximately a 400 year period of silence, until the New Testament commenced with John the Baptist being raised up by God. The Canon of Scripture is complete - it has all the prophecy, revelation, etc that we need to live healthy, righteous christian lives.

kenod
July 23rd, 2007, 06:18 AM
I agree with you : Mike Bickle is a christian, albeit one that is in error and what we can learn from that is not to go down the same path. My wish is for people like these to see their error and repent. And the point is not to look at man but to God.

The way I look at it, the Bible is infallible but neither your understanding nor mine... nor Mike Bickle's ... is infallible. Not one of us has a perfect understanding of God's Word. Sometimes I think we confuse "difference" and "deception".




Can you please elaborate on that?

Your question related to "Scofield dispensationalism". I was referring to C. I. Scofield (of the Scofield Study Bible) who was one of the greatest influences in helping the Church come to a widespread understanding of the pre-tribulation rapture.

His understanding of the end times was the rapture, followed by the tribulation, during which time the Gospel would be received by the elect Jews. He taught the restoration of national Israel early in the 20th century. He did not believe in "replacement theology", nor does Mike Bickle (here (http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=1000010002)) ... nor did William Branham.

The Latter Rain terminology is used in different ways - there are those who take it in the direction of Kingdom Now/Dominion theology, which teaches the Church gaining political control. Again Mike Bickle does not believe this, although he feels that Christians can contribute to the political process in helping to promote social justice. So do I ... but I don't think we will be very successful!

William Branham expressly distanced himself from the Latter Rain movement - he taught that the LR was a spiritual move of God among the Church leading up to the rapture. I believe he is right although I know there are others who believe it applies to Israel (including Scofield btw!)

I see you are a cessasionist with regards to the spiritual gifts God placed in the Church. It is frequently debated so I won't take it any further except to say that for myself, I have Scripture plus personal experience, so I am confident where I'm standing.

Christy
July 23rd, 2007, 06:49 AM
Again Mike Bickle does not believe this, although he feels that Christians can contribute to the political process in helping to promote social justice.

I don't think social justice can be achieved on any pertinent level in today's society. History is littered with this type of thing - The Anabaptists being just one such example, who tried righteous governance in the 1600s which didn't work. The unrighteous refuse to live in a just/righteous society, one simply cannot force this on sinners. (and by that I don't mean that Mike Bickle is). It (a just society) will only come to fruition once judgment by the Lord has been exacted which will bring in millenial rule .

In the New Testament we see that Simon was a Zealot, meaning he wanted to overthrow the current Roman government and replace it with a Jewish one. It is probably for this very reason that he started following Jesus initially - there was confusion among the disciples in thinking that Jesus was going to set up His own government, that He came to overthrow Rome - he didn't understand that Jesus came first and foremost to die for our sins upon the cross.

Simon was looking to install social justice. But social justice will only prevail when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. Our main aim as christians isn't to conform to this world and it's systems, but to preach the saving Grace of Jesus Christ, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

John 4:24 states that we are to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Worshipping God encompasses everything in our everyday lives and not give heed to seducing spirits. 1 Timothy 4:1.

After all, we have God's Spirit to assist us with our daily walk with Him:

Power of the Highest - Luke 1:35
Spirit of Christ - Romans 8:9; 1 Peter 1:11
Spirit of life - Romans 8:2
Spirit of wisdom - Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17
Spirit of counsel - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of understanding - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of knowledge - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of truth - John 14:17; John 15:26
Spirit of the fear of the Lord - Isaiah 11:2

As christians we are to practice social justice on a personal level, uphold the laws of the land as the Bible tells us that no government has come into being without the consent of Almighty God.