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kenod
July 26th, 2007, 05:12 AM
First of all, these people didn't have the completed Canon of the Bible - the church still had to be built (in reference to Acts 27:23 stated above)

We are told in Scripture to be Bereans and test all things.

I think that is exactly right.


Years ago (William Branham) told his interpreter, Pastor Ruff, “If my angel does not give the sign, I cannot heal.” Ruff noticed several features of spiritism in the work of Branham, and therefore stopped working with him. These “angels” of whom (Harry) Edwards and Branham spoke are evil spirits masquerading as angels of light. As in many areas of the occult, we are here reminded again that the devil appears as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) Another evidence is the fact that neither Edwards nor Branham were able to perform cures when faced with born-again Christians who had committed themselves to the protection of Christ. In the case of Branham, I have experienced this myself. When he spoke in Karlsruhe and Lausanne, there were several believers among the audience — including myself — who prayed along these lines: “Lord, if this man’s powers are from You, then bless and use him, but if the healing gifts are not from You, then hinder him.” The result? On both occasions Branham said from the platform, “There are disturbing powers here. I can do nothing.” (Kurt Koch, Occult ABC, 1978, p. 235)

There were people suffering, perhaps dying, and going forward to ask God if He would heal them ... and these men are sitting there praying for God to "hinder him" ... give me a break, those men didn't even have compassion, let alone faith!

If Koch's account is true, it is interesting how that the doubt and unbelief that he and his associates brought into the meeting seems to have had a similar affect to that which unbelief had on Jesus' ministry:




Mat 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mark 6:5-6
And he could there do no mighty work,
save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
And he marvelled because of their unbelief.


When you read or listen to William Banham's sermons you learn that the "Angel" was the Light that he could see - he believed it was God the Holy Spirit showing His presence in a visible form.

William Branham never claimed to have any powers to heal. He said that the gift of discernment was to help raise people's faith so they could believe God for their healing.

He quoted Scriptural support for the significance of his ability to discern people's needs and personal details by referring to the incident of the woman at the well (John 4:16-19), and Jesus' greeting of Nathanael (John 1:47-49).

The validity of this gift of discernment has been questioned by some, but the noted Pentecostal historian, Walter Hollenweger, who acted as a translator for William Branham in Switzerland, stated: "I am not aware of any case in which he was mistaken in the often detailed statements he made" (Hollenweger, W.J., "The Pentecostals", Augsburg Publishing House, 1972, p354 )

The mistake that Alfred Pohl and Kurt Koch both make is that they consider only one side - they have never investigated the claims of those people who say they have been healed. If this was a court case and I was on the jury, I would want to hear witnesses from both sides, and then make up my mind.



Scripture is all sufficient. It contains all the prophecy, knowledge, revelation, wisdom, etc we require to know God and His plan for our lives.

You are right, but we must believe what it says. The Bible tells me about a God who does the supernatural. Here we are on the verge of the most supernatural event in the history of the whole world (the rapture) and we are still having trouble believing that God performs the supernatural today.

Christy
July 26th, 2007, 08:58 AM
and these men are sitting there praying for God to "hinder him" ... give me a break, those men didn't even have compassion, let alone faith!

On the contrary, I don't think it was their lack of caring or compassion, I think it was rather due to it. God heals - in His own time and when He wills. His ways aren't our ways. And which man can hinder God's will? If it's God's will to heal someone - which mortal man can stand against it? Which one of us can hinder the works of Almighty God?


The Bible tells me about a God who does the supernatural. Here we are on the verge of the most supernatural event in the history of the whole world (the rapture) and we are still having trouble believing that God performs the supernatural today.

God doesn't always give signs and wonders - as we are to live by faith - besides - it's not what we want, when we want it - but what God wants and when He wills it. Most people today want the "experience" and not sound doctrine that brings them to rapturing faith. Any exta-biblical prophecies, signs, wonders, etc take away the authority of scripture mainly because if it renders the Bible incomplete (which it is not).

The way I view Branham and anything else/anyone else that (particularly) came to the fore during the 1940s is as follows:

Israel was declared a nation once again (1948) - so Satan knew for a fact that this was a sign that his time was rather short, so he obviously had to bring his own false Elijah to the fore to steer people away from God and God-given truth. The more people he can deceive, the better it is for him. Someone like Branham who clearly didn't believe in the trinity and who also gave numerous false prophecies cannot be called of God because God isn't a liar. Branham's parents delved into the occult and this is what opened the door to Satan.

The apostasy and deception has only waxed worse since then. When God speaks via Joel in Chapter 2, as well as the other Old Testament prophets - He is clearly speaking to Israel, not the church, hence the 2nd Pentecost (Latter Rain) will occur in Israel (which will obviously affect the entire world) in a time set by God - not by any man claiming to have a "guiding angel" which sits on his right-hand side controlling him.

Joel 2:1-28:
1
Blow the trumpet in Zion, sound the alarm on my holy mountain! Let all who dwell in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming;
2
Yes, it is near, a day of darkness and of gloom, a day of clouds and somberness! Like dawn spreading over the mountains, a people numerous and mighty! Their like has not been from of old, nor will it be after them, even to the years of distant generations.
3
Before them a fire devours, and after them a flame enkindles; Like the garden of Eden is the land before them, and after them a desert waste; from them there is no escape.
4
Their appearance is that of horses; like steeds they run.
5
As with the rumble of chariots they leap on the mountaintops; As with the crackling of a fiery flame devouring stubble; Like a mighty people arrayed for battle.
6
Before them peoples are in torment, every face blanches.
7
Like warriors they run, like soldiers they scale the wall; They advance, each in his own lane, without swerving from their paths.
8
No one crowds another, each advances in his own track; Though they fall into the ditches, they are not checked.
9
They assault the city, they run upon the wall, they climb into the houses; In at the windows they come like thieves.
10
Before them the earth trembles, the heavens shake; The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withhold their brightness.
11
The LORD raises his voice at the head of his army; For immense indeed is his camp, yes, mighty, and it does his bidding. For great is the day of the LORD, and exceedingly terrible; who can bear it?
12
Yet even now, says the LORD, return to me with your whole heart, with fasting, and weeping, and mourning;
13
Rend your hearts, not your garments, and return to the LORD, your God. For gracious and merciful is he, slow to anger, rich in kindness, and relenting in punishment.
14
Perhaps he will again relent and leave behind him a blessing, Offerings and libations for the LORD, your God.
15
Blow the trumpet in Zion! proclaim a fast, call an assembly;
16
Gather the people, notify the congregation; Assemble the elders, gather the children and the infants at the breast; Let the bridegroom quit his room, and the bride her chamber.
17
1 Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep, And say, "Spare, O LORD, your people, and make not your heritage a reproach, with the nations ruling over them! Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"
18
Then the LORD was stirred to concern for his land and took pity on his people.
19
The LORD answered and said to his people: See, I will send you grain, and wine, and oil, and you shall be filled with them; No more will I make you a reproach among the nations.
20
2 No, the northerner I will remove far from you, and drive him out into a land arid and waste, With his van toward the eastern sea, and his rear toward the western sea; And his foulness shall go up, and his stench shall go up.
21
Fear not, O land! exult and rejoice! for the LORD has done great things.
22
Fear not, beasts of the field! for the pastures of the plain are green; The tree bears its fruit, the fig tree and the vine give their yield.
23
3 And do you, O children of Zion, exult and rejoice in the LORD, your God! He has given you the teacher of justice: he has made the rain come down for you, the early and the late rain as before.
24
The threshing floors shall be full of grain and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25
And I will repay you for the years which the locust has eaten, The grasshopper, the devourer, and the cutter, my great army which I sent among you.
26
You shall eat and be filled, and shall praise the name of the LORD, your God, Because he has dealt wondrously with you; my people shall nevermore be put to shame.
27
And you shall know that I AM IN THE MIDST OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD, your God, and there is no other; my people shall nevermore be put to shame.
28
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

It's the weirdest thing - but I see Israel and the Jews everywhere in that scripture - there's no mention of the church and there's no mention of Branham or Kansas City either...... say what? Neither does it state anywhere in the above scripture or anywhere else for that matter that we are to replace the word "Israel" with "church". God's prophets were also always 100% correct and they didn't go to "Prophet School" either to learn how to "prophesy". It's the darndest thing, I tell you. Their prophecies always correlated - the OT prophecies correlate with the NT and vice versa.

Here are some of Branham's "prophecies" which have been saved for (dare I say) prosperity:

“Now my precious brothers - I know this is a tape also. Now don’t get excited. Let me say this with Godly love. The hours approached where I can’t hold still on these things no more… Trinitarianism is of the devil. I tell you that - Thus saith the Lord.”
(William Branham, Footprints on the Sands of Time: The autobiography of William Marrion Branham, Part Two
(Jeffersonville, IN: Spoken Word Publications, 1975), 606-7.)

[B]“Why don’t you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false ‘trinity’ it’s so-called…”
(William Braham, “Revelation Chapter Four #3 (Throne of Mercy and Judgment)” (Voice of God Recordings, Inc., 1961, audio tape #61-0108, side 2).

“Why don’t you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false ‘trinity’ it’s so-called…”
(William Braham, “Revelation Chapter Four #3 (Throne of Mercy and Judgment)” (Voice of God Recordings, Inc., 1961, audio tape #61-0108, side 2).

The angel spoke to William Branham saying: “Fear not. I am sent from the presence of Almighty God to tell you that your particular life and your misunderstood ways have been to indicate that God has sent you to take a gift of divine healing to the people of the world. If you will be sincere, and can get the people to believe you, nothing shall stand before your prayer, not even cancer.” (Harrell, All Things Are Possible, 28)

When Jesus and the Apostles healed people in their day - there were no preconditions as the one depicted in red lettering above.

William Branham falsely prophesied: “that by 1977 all denominations would be consumed by the World Council of Churches under the control of the Roman Catholics, that the rapture would take place, and that the world would be destroyed.”
(Burgess and McGee, Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, 96)

When we speak on behalf of Almighty God we better know what we are doing and saying, it's not to be taken lightly, especially if we get it horribly wrong............ for who are we to turn God into a liar?

The man said it - it was recorded. Now do we ignore it and stick our heads in the sand and hope all the man's false prophecies and bad doctrines will vanish?

kenod
July 26th, 2007, 08:10 PM
Ther are two aspects to consider about William Branham: (1) Was the supernatural in his ministry real? (2) Was his doctrine correct?

Although Koch and his companions seeem to think that Branham was hindered by their prayers, in fact the record shows the opposite. Some of the Swiss meetings were taped and are on public record today. Walter Hollenweger, although not a follower of William Branham, testified that the discernment of people's needs was indeed accurate. Hollenweger is a well respected church historian, and was Branham's interpreter in Switzerland (the very meetings Koch and his friends attended).

As for the healings, there are thousands of testimonies, many on record. Here is just one: Congressman William Upshaw (http://www.ourcampaigns.com/CandidateDetail.html?CandidateID=4209&ShowAllEvent=Y). Recently I came across a photocopy of this newspaper article describing a Branham meeting in South Africa: "Cripples Rise From Wheel-Chairs and Walk" (The Natal Mercury, Durban, Friday, November 23, 1951).

Now as for the doctrine, particularly the Trinity, discussions of that nature are not encouraged on this board so I will say only a little. Some see the three persons as three separate beings (eg Finis Dake) - this is extreme trinitarianism, and this is what William Branham opposed. He believed God was one, just as one person can be a son, and a husband, and a father. He taught the "supreme deity" of Jesus Christ - that is, Jesus Christ was ALL of the Godhead, not just the second person of the Trinity (Col 2:9)

Even Trinitarian scholars admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly stated in the Bible. It is a conclusion based on the evidence, about which the church eventually reached a consensus during the 4th century.

“Since the doctrine of the Trinity is revealed, Scripture must prove it, which is the record of revelation. It is not explicitly stated in Scripture, but has been worked out by the Church as the only possible conclusion from the evidence given in Scripture". (D.D. Moss, "The Christian Faith: An Introduction to Dogmatic Theology" (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:-wDzcLkasFEJ:www.katapi.org.uk/ChristianFaith/VIII.htm+Trinity+Moss+%22explicitly+stated%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=au)

Here are some interesting comments by a Catholic writer:
Many key doctrines, such as the Trinity, which are accepted as foundational by Protestants are not specifically formulated in the Bible but centuries later by the Church -- usually in response to heresy.
….
The Trinity is a key doctrine of the Bible. It has developed over the centuries as people struggled with heretical teachings. Each new formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity came closer to expressing the modern doctrine until there was stability with Augustine's statement and the modern view of the Trinity was established.
John Shepard (http://www.northforest.org/CatholicApologetics/SolaScriptura1.html)

It seems to me, that just as in the first 500 years the Church gradually slipped into darkness, during the last 500 years the Church has gradually emerged from the darkness. Even the widespread acceptance of the pre-trib rapture has emerged in comparatively recent times. I believe God has been restoring truth to the Church.

kenod
July 26th, 2007, 08:29 PM
William Branham falsely prophesied: “that by 1977 all denominations would be consumed by the World Council of Churches under the control of the Roman Catholics, that the rapture would take place, and that the world would be destroyed.”
(Burgess and McGee, Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, 96)

I think it could be helpful to compare what William Branham actually said:

LAODICEAN CHURCH AGE, 1960 (recorded sermon))
We believe that the Laodicean church started in A.D. 1906. I predict... Now, remember, "predict," especially you listening at the tape. I don't say it will be, but predict that it will end by 1977, that the church will go completely into apostasy, and she'll be ousted out of the mouth of God. And the second coming, or the rapture of Christ, might come anytime. Now, I could miss that a year; I can miss it twenty years, I could miss it a hundred years. I don't know where. But I just predict that according to a vision He showed me, and taking the time, the way it's progressing, I say it'll be sometime between '33 and '77. At least, this great nation is going to strike a war that's going to blow it to bits. See? Now, that's pretty close; it's awful close. And I could be wrong; I'm predicting. Everybody understand say, "amen" if you do.

LAODICEAN CHURCH AGE, 1965 (book)
Based on these seven visions, along with the rapid changes which have swept the world in the last fifty years, I PREDICT (I do not prophesy) that these visions will have all come to pass by 1977. And though many may feel that this is an irresponsible statement in view of the fact that Jesus said that 'no man knoweth the day nor the hour.' I still maintain this prediction after thirty years because, Jesus did NOT say no man could know the year, month or week in which His coming was to be completed. So I repeat, I sincerely believe and maintain as a private student of the Word, along with Divine inspiration that 1977 ought to terminate the world systems and usher in the millennium. (emphasis in text)

Buzzardhut
July 26th, 2007, 08:39 PM
You know, I think I would rather be wrong in my doctrine and right in my heart, than right in my doctrine and wrong in my heart!
A lot of people think that way and that is what causes trouble in most churches, people go by what they feel and not what scripture says.

Christy
July 27th, 2007, 04:51 AM
A prediction is a statement or claim that a particular event will occur in the future. The etymology of this word is Latin (from præ- "before" plus dicere "to say").


We believe that the Laodicean church started in A.D. 1906. I predict... Now, remember, "predict," especially you listening at the tape. I don't say it will be, but predict that it will end by 1977, that the church will go completely into apostasy, and she'll be ousted out of the mouth of God. And the second coming, or the rapture of Christ, might come anytime. Now, I could miss that a year; I can miss it twenty years, I could miss it a hundred years. I don't know where. But I just predict that according to a vision He showed me, and taking the time, the way it's progressing, I say it'll be sometime between '33 and '77. At least, this great nation is going to strike a war that's going to blow it to bits. See? Now, that's pretty close; it's awful close. And I could be wrong; I'm predicting. Everybody understand say, "amen" if you do.

The above "prediction" is merely a cop-out, as what's the use of even verbalising it and then saying it may or may not come to fruition on a certain date. Now if you compare that to the OT prophets - I can't see anywhere in the Bible where Jeremiah, Amos, Isaiah, Ezekiel, et al stand up and make a prophecies to this effect. There's clearly no comparison between the two - it's like comparing fillet steak with offal.

It's like one of the OT prophets prophesying and saying they could be wrong about a date or the exact occurrence. God is the person speaking through the prophet - and how could Almighty God be wrong/vague/indecisive? It can only be the devil - for he speaks with forked tongue. Besides, God warns us about date setting.

I see Branham more as a counterfeit christ than a prophet. One only needs to read his biography and the circumstances that surrounded his life to have this fact stand out. There are many (counterfeit) things about his birth and subsequent life that mimicked the birth of a "messiah":

Firstly Branham was born on April 6, 1909 - I couldn't help noticing the "666" there - one has to keep in mind that occultists turn the 9's upside down.

Secondly a light entered the bedroom 15 minutes after his birth, hovered around and exited through the roof. Shortly after that a white dove sat on the sill of the open window, looked at Branham and cooed, then flew away.

Thirdly, he encountered a fortune-teller who stopped him and pointed out that he (Branham) had a light following him and this represented he had a "divine calling" on his life.

Fourthly, he encountered an astrologer on a bus who couldn't keep her eyes off him and told him that he had a "gold aura" surrounding him - and the only other person who had this was Jesus Christ. The gold aura she stated represented that he was a "gift" to mankind. She obviously didn't know him from a bar of soap but proceeded to tell him that he was born on April 6, 1909 when the planets were in special alignment. She also stated that the reason she (as an astrologer) was telling him this was that, like the birth of Jesus, when the star shone brightly, so he had a light following him, and she could see this as did the Magi when Jesus Christ was born.

Now the way I see it is, Jesus Christ was God's only gift to mankind - there are no subsequent gifts, only false ones, which the Bible warns us against. And let's keep in mind that the devil and his cronies also come across as "angels of light" and that there will be lying signs and wonders in the last days, not to mention that there will be many counterfeit christs (antichrists). The devil is the chief con-artist.

With all due respect, upon reading his biography, I felt really sorry for him as he had a very hard childhood. But the man's doctrines and beliefs were totally out of line with the Word of God. I would even state that he might've been sincere, but it's clear he was deceived. It's actually sad and unsettling to see how sincere people can be hoodwinked to follow a counterfeit christ or counterfeit signs and wonders.

I don't dispute the fact that there were supernatural occurrences in Branham's life - I dispute the fact that they were from Almighty God.

Although I don't like saying it, I have no problem stating with a clear conscience that William Branham was a false prophet. One only has to look at his belief concerning the Trinity to gauge this fact. Once someone start dumbing down the Trinity and the Virgin Birth they're on shaky ground as the Trinity is unique to God, it tells us about His character, who He is, and once we start questioning the Virgin Birth (not that Branham did this - I'm just using it as an example). - we take away His divinity - so in effect is it the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob we are worshipping?


Hollenweger is a well respected church historian, and was Branham's interpreter in Switzerland (the very meetings Koch and his friends attended).

Correction : He's a noted Pentecostal historian and Charismatic and what he believes falls much in line with the likes of David Harrell and Kenneth Hagin.

Years ago William Branham told his interpreter, "If my angel does not give the sign, I cannot heal." Ruff (his interpreter) noticed several features of spiritism in the work of Branham, and therefore stopped working with him.

Quotes made by Branham:

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is offices of one God. He was the Father; He was the Son; He is the Holy Ghost. It's three offices or three dispensations,..." (William Branham, Conduct, Order, Doctrine Q and A, p. 392). (This view of the Godhead is called Modalism and has been held to be heretical by both Catholic and Protestant churches.)

Let's not go there.


Branham taught that the Word of God was given in three forms, the zodiac, the Egyptian pyramids, and the written scripture.(Al Dager, Vengeance is Ours, Sword, Page 59)

Wow. My Bible tells me not to get involved in astrology and I cannot find mention of the pyramids in it either. Go figure.


"The most remarkable "messiah" at (the time of the writing of this book) ... is to be found at camp Manujothi Ashram in the desert in South India. It is the extreme American evangelist, William Branham, whom Christians have to thank for this false messiah. His name is Paluser Lawrie Mathukrishna. When Branham was on (a) tour of India, Brother Lawrie became a disciple of his, and Branham described him as the "Son of God" and "Christ returned". This is a very curious situation. Why would the "Son of God" and "Christ returned" be the disciple of a man like Branham? Shouldn't it have been the other way around? Or maybe it was. Perhaps this is an important connection between hinduism and kundalini and the the modern "counterfeit" revival. Perhaps this is where Branham, one of the fathers of the Third Wave movement, picked up the ability to pass along kundalini-type manifestations. Perhaps this is where he picked up a demonic spirit, because it is "reported that towards the end, some of his teachings almost bordered on the occult." (Kurt Koch, Occult ABC, 1978, p. 66; comments by Deception In The Church, 1997; The Enigma Of William Branham)

kenod
July 27th, 2007, 09:38 PM
A lot of people think that way and thats what cause trouble in most churches, people go by what they feel and not what scripture says.

So what are you saying ... you'd rather be right in your doctrine and wrong in your heart? :) (They were the only two options I was considering).

I think we'd probably both prefer to be right in our doctrine, and right in our heart, eh?

There are differences in doctrine among churches, but they can still all be saved, if they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.

I much prefer Baptist doctrine to Catholic doctrine, but if the Baptist is trusting in his church membership, and the Catholic is trusting in Jesus Christ, who is saved and who is not?

kenod
July 27th, 2007, 11:05 PM
What a person chooses to believe about William Branham's ministry, or any other teacher for that matter, does not concern me, but I am interested in trying to get a clear and accurate picture of what is factual and what is not.

When reading carefully, I think it becomes clear that William Branham's distinction between a prophecy and a prediction is that he believed the first was shown to him by God, and the second was his own opinion. Since there are over 2000 hours of recorded comments by Branham, I suppose he, like anyone else, is entitled to express a personal opinion.




Thirdly, he encountered a fortune-teller who stopped him and pointed out that he (Branham) had a light following him and this represented he had a "divine calling" on his life.

Evil spirits recognize the Spirit of God:




Mat 8:28-29
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Act 16:16-18
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


It's actually sad and unsettling to see how sincere people can be hoodwinked to follow a counterfeit christ or counterfeit signs and wonders.

Well, that is your personal opinion and you are entitled to that of course. However, I think it would be an error to assume that those who do accept the teachings of William Branham do not know their Bibles ... in my experience they know the Scriptures exceedingly well, although their understanding may differ from yours in some points.



Correction : He's a noted Pentecostal historian and Charismatic and what he believes falls much in line with the likes of David Harrell and Kenneth Hagin.




Walter J. Hollenweger is the leading expert on worldwide Pentecostalism, which he has been studying for more than 40 years. Having grown up in the Pentecostal church, he later became ordained in the Reformed Church of Switzerland. From 1965 to 1971 he was executive secretary of the World Council of Churches, then served as professor of mission at England’s University of Birmingham for 18 years. His seminal book The Pentecostals (Hendrickson, 1972) was recently followed up by Pentecostalism: Origins and Developments Worldwide (Hendrickson, 1997). source (http://www.pastornet.net.au/renewal/journal13/13c%20Hollenweger.html)




David Edwin Harrell, Jnr., Professor Emeritus, received a B.A. degree from David Lipscomb College in 1954 and M.A. and Ph.D. degrees from Vanderbilt University in 1958 and 1962. He has written seven books on American religious history, including The Churches of Christ in the Twentieth Century: Homer Hailey’s Personal Journey of Faith (University of Alabama Press, 2000), Oral Roberts: An American Life (Indiana University Press, 1985) and Pat Robertson: A Personal, Religious, and Political Portrait (Harper & Row, 1987). He is co-editor of "Minorities in Modern America," a series published by Indiana University Press, and a series entitled "Religion and American Culture" by the University of Alabama Press. He is the author of over fifty articles in scholarly publications. He currently is co-authoring a college-level textbook on American history, Unto a Good Land: A History of the American People (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishers, 2005). His current research interests focus on the history of the modern Pentecostal and charismatic movements and other primitivist religious movements in America.source (http://media.cla.auburn.edu/history/alumni/bios/harrell_ed.htm)



Years ago William Branham told his interpreter, "If my angel does not give the sign, I cannot heal." Ruff (his interpreter) noticed several features of spiritism in the work of Branham, and therefore stopped working with him.

Who is Ruff?

William Branham believed the "Angel" was the Holy Spirit in a visible form. And yes, he did wait for that sign of the appearance of the Light (Angel) before beginning to pray for people in the meetings, but he NEVER said he could heal anyone - he said exactly the opposite on countless occasons.


My Bible tells me not to get involved in astrology and I cannot find mention of the pyramids in it either. Go figure.

All Christians believe that God created the stars, which includes all the constellations commonly called the zodiac (Psalm 19:1). At no time did William Branham ever tell anyone to take notice of astrology or pyramid teaching - in fact he frequently warned against it. He aways taught that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and the ONLY source of authority for the Christian believer.

What he also said was that before the written Scriptures, men could tell the existence of God and have a glimpse of His plan through the contellations of the zodiac and the structure of the great pyramid. The zodiac begins with the "virgin" and ends with the "lion" - representing Christ's first and second comings (Psalm 97:6). The wise men used their study of the stars to find their way to Jesus. But William Branham said that for the Christian today, astrology and fortune telling were wrong.

Christy
July 28th, 2007, 03:57 AM
Evil spirits recognize the Spirit of God:

I'm well aware of that, but those that Branham encountered never told him he was sent by God, nor were they fearful of him. That in itself says a lot. What the Astrologer on the bus did (in not so many words) was actually compare him to Jesus Christ. Now that's a long stretch by anyone's standards. Evil spirits also recognise their own.


in my experience they know the Scriptures exceedingly well,

So does the devil and he's really good at twisting it.


Walter J. Hollenweger is the leading expert on worldwide Pentecostalism, which he has been studying for more than 40 years. Having grown up in the Pentecostal church, he later became ordained in the Reformed Church of Switzerland.

I am au fait with the above. But is he a doctor? Seeing as he was the "expert" that stated more healings took place in Switzerland than were actually reported. Or is it clearly hearsay?

He and Harrell both believe in an occultic practice called mind reading, as does Kenneth Hagin.


Who is Ruff?

Ruff was Branham's pesonal interpreter for many years. Branham's assistant (whose name fails me at this point) also left due to the very same thing. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.


All Christians believe that God created the stars, which includes all the constellations commonly called the zodiac (Psalm 19:1). At no time did William Branham ever tell anyone to take notice of astrology or pyramid teaching - in fact he frequently warned against it. He aways taught that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and the ONLY source of authority for the Christian believer.

God did invent the stars - that's not in dispute here. Can you please provide proof that Branham never told anyone to take notice of the pyramids and astrology? He might've taught the Bible as the infallible Word of God, but he sure took it totally out of context - a good example being - he called his "angel" the 7th angel in Revelation 10:7 - now that is a future event that is to take place in Revelation.

What he also said was that before the written Scriptures, men could tell the existence of God and have a glimpse of His plan through the contellations of the zodiac and the structure of the great pyramid. The zodiac begins with the "virgin" and ends with the "lion" - representing Christ's first and second comings (Psalm 97:6).

This is a lie.

The following verse from Isaiah shows God addressing Babylon about the sins they are committing, including the seeking of guidance from astrologers....

Isaiah 47:13-14: All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by.

Leviticus 20:6 says God will separate himself from those who go after mediums and familiar spirits.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says that practicing witchcraft, sorcery, soothsaying, interpreting omens, making spells, and being a medium or spiritist, are all terrible sins to God.

Daniel 2:27-28 talks of how God kept King Nebuchadnezzar's dream and its interpretation secret from the astrologers, magicians or dream interpreters, and soothsayers. However, he revealed it to his prophet Daniel.

Acts 16:16-18 talks of a girl who was possessed by an evil spirit that enabled her to be a fortune teller. Paul commanded the evil spirit to come out of her in the name or authority of Jesus, and the spirit left her:

Deuteronomy 18:9-11: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft..."

2 Chronicles 33:5-7: "He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger."

Throughout the entire Bible God allows only His prophets to accurately interpret any kind of "signs". It is important to to note that when the Bible talks about signs in the stars, heavens, or whatever, they're usually literal signs:

Luke 21:24-26 says, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Psalm 97:6 : The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.
Psalm 19:1 : The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

God created the stars. Heathen man created astrology. Huge difference.


So what are you saying ... you'd rather be right in your doctrine and wrong in your heart? (They were the only two options I was considering).

Only God knows the heart of men, so it's pretty futile trying to judge another man's heart if you are a man (woman?).

Proverbs 21:1-2 (KJV):
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Concerning the doctrine part:
ALL Scripture is God breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work 2 Timothy 3.16-17.

So with the above scripture in mind, if we are wrong in our doctrine then how possibly can we be correct, reproved, trained in righteousness so that we can be adequate and equipped for every good work? Hmmmmmmm.............

Branhams exact words concerning the Zodiac were, and I quote:


“The first Bible was in the sky, called the zodiac. Now if you don't know the Book of Job, just forget about it, 'cause--because Job is the one explains it: how that he looked up, and he named those things in the sky. And notice, in the zodiac is the virgin. The last thing in the zodiac is Leo the Lion: the first coming of Christ through the virgin; the second coming, Leo the Lion, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.”

"The gates of gigantic pearls are raised and hinged. Like a pyramid she stands so fair and glorious. The heavenly beings who have prepared her watch breathlessly, for she glistens and shines with a glory that is unearthly...Yes, it is the last call. The Spirit will not speak in another age. The ages are over."
Huh? Sounds rather more like pie in the sky to me and I never knew for the life of me that Job had "actually named the Zodiac". I cried with laughter when I read that. Indeed, truly a load of nonsense.

God himself named the stars in Psalm 147:4: "He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names."

Idolatry consists in revering the created thing rather than the creator. Behind the worship of the sun, moon and stars are the demonic powers of the heavenly realm (1 Corinthians 10:20). Angels, fallen and unfallen, are God's instruments in the government of the physical world and nature (Hebrews 2:5). Seeking answers about the future in the stars-then or now-brings us under the control of demonic agencies-to our own harm and destruction.

Buzzardhut
July 28th, 2007, 04:07 AM
So what are you saying ... you'd rather be right in your doctrine and wrong in your heart? :) (They were the only two options I was considering).

I think we'd probably both prefer to be right in our doctrine, and right in our heart, eh?

There are differences in doctrine among churches, but they can still all be saved, if they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation.

I much prefer Baptist doctrine to Catholic doctrine, but if the Baptist is trusting in his church membership, and the Catholic is trusting in Jesus Christ, who is saved and who is not?
God's will be done, not my will.
God's will is not in trusting any man made religions, memberships, or sacraments.