Pauline Dispensationalism

[God's Trombone]

It is interesting to pull Paul out - he clearly lays out a gospel of grace, a clear plan of salvation, and his hope was the rapture and the heavenly promises. Hebrews - Revelation (which I am studying now, looking at what they have in common and contrast to Paul) do not lay out a clear plan of salavation and those books are an encouragement to essentially Jews (seemingly under Law/works) to endure through the tribulation with their great hope the Messianic Kingdom. It is a fascinating division and really does clear up so much. :yay:nod:thumb
Super post!

[kenod]

What is missing from Peter's message in Acts 2 and following?
It is this:
I Cor. 15:33 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Can you honestly say that the two messages are "the same?":twitch:ohno

I'm sure you've considered this question, but in his first epistle, Peter speaks specifically of how we are redeemed by the blood of Christ:

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

[God's Trombone]

Though there are numerous cutnpaste quotes in this thread, I have refrained from any but scripture.

Today I received by email the following piece by the late Cornelius Stam. His way of putting things is so concise, he says so much in a "Two Minute" Bible talk.
HAVE YOU HEARD?
by Cornelius R. Stam

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward" (Eph. 3:2).

Could it be that those to whom Paul addressed his Ephesian letter had not yet heard that God had committed to him "the dispensation of grace"?

Next to the death and resurrection of Christ, the conversion of Paul and his commission to proclaim "the gospel of the grace of God" was the greatest event in history . The apostles at Jerusalem had recognized the importance of Paul’s part in the divine program. They themselves had at first been sent by Christ into "all the world," yet in Gal. 2:9 we find James, Peter and John publicly shaking hands with Paul in a solemn agreement that he should henceforth be the apostle to the nations.

Could it be that some twelve years later, when he wrote the Ephesian letter, there were any who professed the name of Christ who had not heard of Paul’s special place in the program of God as the apostle of grace? Little wonder his words "if ye have heard" carry with them a touch of reproach.

It is possible, of course, that there were some among them, but recently brought into the Church, who had not heard, but what seems utterly incredible is that there should be even one believer at this late date who has not heard that after Christ and His kingdom had been rejected and the world was ripe for prophesied judgment to fall, God intervened, saving Saul, His chief enemy on earth, and sending him forth with "the good news of the grace of God."

This good news is based, of course, upon the fact that since Christ was the spotless Lamb of God, His death is accepted by God as full satisfaction for the sinner. Thus Paul, by divine inspiration, declares that believers are "justified freely by His [God’s] grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the Reader:
Some of our Two Minutes articles were written many years ago by Pastor C. R. Stam for publication in newspapers. When many of these articles were later compiled in book form, Pastor Stam wrote this word of explanation in the Preface:

"It should be borne in mind that the newspaper column, Two Minutes With the Bible, has now been published for many years, so that local, national and international events are discussed as if they occurred only recently. Rather than rewrite or date such articles, we have left them just as they were when first published. This, we felt, would add to the interest, especially since our readers understand that they first appeared as newspaper articles."

We hope that you'll agree that while some of the references in these articles are dated, the spiritual truths taught therein are timeless.
www.bereanbiblesociety.org

[God's Trombone]

I'm sure you've considered this question, but in his first epistle, Peter speaks specifically of how we are redeemed by the blood of Christ:

1 Peter 1:18-19
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Without Christ's shed blood, no one, whether Peter's Jewish audience in I Peter, or Paul's Gentile audience can be saved.

The point of Christ calling Paul to preach salvation apart from Israel and apart from the works of the law, is that Christ had given Peter and the 12 a message of salvation that included works of the law. Peter never abandoned his Gospel til the end of his life. Christ gave the little flock the promise of the kingdom of heaven on earth. That is their inheritance.

Christ gave Paul, and us, a heavenly position upon our believing the Gospel of our salvation, the Word of Truth. (Eph. 1:13)

[kenod]

Without Christ's shed blood, no one, whether Peter's Jewish audience in I Peter, or Paul's Gentile audience can be saved.

The point of Christ calling Paul to preach salvation apart from Israel and apart from the works of the law, is that Christ had given Peter and the 12 a message of salvation that included works of the law. Peter never abandoned his Gospel til the end of his life. Christ gave the little flock the promise of the kingdom of heaven on earth. That is their inheritance.

Christ gave Paul, and us, a heavenly position upon our believing the Gospel of our salvation, the Word of Truth. (Eph. 1:13)

That last sentence is indeed wonderful, and I totally agree with it.

Can you state briefly for me the significance of separating the message to Jewish believers and the message to the Gentile believers? Are you saying that some parts of the 4 Gospels, and the writings of Peter, James, John and Jude are not relevant for Gentile believers?

[Harley]

Kinda-of-a-drag when you find a thread 11 pages long, it's way too late to adequately join the sidcussion... but I'll just pop in with a generic contribution voicing an opposing belief... I believe there is but one Gospel, not two. By extension then I probably disagree with most of the subsequent dominoes as well.

[HeIsEnough]

Hey bro, you're more than welcome to join in. :nod

I'm not exactly sure, but there are no limits on post count for a thread. This may go on for a while...

[Hootmon]

I believe there is but one Gospel, not two. By extension then I probably disagree with most of the subsequent dominoes as well.Except for one or two posters, it seems to be more a matter of emphasis than a true dichotomy, IMO.

[Aliya]

Can you state briefly for me the significance of separating the message to Jewish believers and the message to the Gentile believers? Are you saying that some parts of the 4 Gospels, and the writings of Peter, James, John and Jude are not relevant for Gentile believers?

I won't answer for God's Trombone, but I think if you put the kingdom, law and prophecy together and then the Body of Christ, mystery and pure grace together, it makes perfect sense. In the gospels and most of the Jewish epistles, the Jews are looking for the kingdom. They believe Christ is returning very soon and they wanted to be ready to rule the tribes of Israel, as Christ promised them. That the Gentiles would be saved is part of prophecy. But if you watch, the Jews are still mostly under Law - they are still worshiping at the Temple, keeping Sabbath, (mostly) keeping kosher and the other laws. They are watiting for the wrath and vexation and then the Messianic Kingdom to be ushered in. They never speak of the Body of Christ, the rapture, the mystery, or put sanctification, justification, and glorification in the way that Paul does (if they mention those things at all).

Then along comes Paul and the dispensation he received from Christ. He is told that Gentiles and Jews alike can now be saved simply by believing. Paul is the only one to lay out the clear message of salvation in his letters. He doesn't speak of the coming Kingdom - he speaks of the Rapture. He says this new organism - the body of Christ - will be kept from the wrath. He tells his assemblies that they will be removed and go to dwell with Christ always. He tells them they don't need to DO anything - they are saved by faith by grace. Not saved by faith, justified by Works, Not saved by Christ's blood, but keep all the commandments. Not saved by Faith, but get circumcised. Not saved by faith, but keep all the days and months and years of holy days.

So the good news as it invovles Christ being the son of God, that he was crucified and his blood covers are sin, that he is the propitiation, the way to salvation - all of that is the same. But faith alone, the mystery of the Body of Christ, the methods of justification, the fact that the moment we believe we become part of Christ and our home is in heaven.... and perhaps the most glorious - we are instantly sanctified, justified, glorified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit because we're part of the Body of Christ - that when God looks at us, he sees Christ - that is all Mystery, all part of Paul's gospel.

Paul brought his mystery to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Paul did not preach in Jerusalem, but to Jews in the dispersion. He faced opposition from Judaizers who wanted ALL to keep the law - Gentiles and Jews alike. He faced opposition initially from the 12 - he had a heck of a time convincing them of his authority and the new message. Paul had the hardest job in the world - bring the message to the Gentiles.. and to the Jews! His message was more radical in some ways than Jesus's message - everything Jesus said was prohpecied. What Paul had to teach was mostly unprophecied and Mystery.

Most of the alleged contradictions in the Bible, and many of the denominational differences stem from not recognizing these differences.

After the Body of Christ is raptured (Christ is the head of this living organism, which is in Heaven, even when a portion of the body is still physically on earth), and the Tribulation starts..... what parts of the bible will be the most helpful to those going through those years and preparing to enter the Kingdom?

It will be the gospels and Hebrews through Revelation. Paul's teaching will be for their learning, it will be evidence of God's grace and more proof that God's Word is true, but Paul's message will NOT be for their doctrine. The 144,000 will be Jews who will again preach like Peter did. Repent, my fellow Jews, for the Kingdom is at hand! They will bring the message to Gentiles too. And they will all go through the Tribulation and those who survive will enter the MK.... just like Jesus promised, just like the Hebrews - Revelation books teach. Those books will be 100% relevant to those living in the tribulation. It will be as if it were 35 or so AD again. You can remove Paul's teachings and all the Mystery of the Body of Christ - and the program for the world will flow on in perfect harmony with what Jesus preached in his earthly ministry and Peter, James and John wrote in their epistles.

As for the Body of Christ - we'll be with our Lord forever already. :yay

[Lexie]

I think it is unlikely that all the apostles stayed in Israel. There is a strong tradition that Thomas went to India. And Peter writes his first epistle from "Babylon" (either a euphemism for Rome, or the real Babylon) 1 Peter 5:13


My post
"Paul was sent to the gentiles, with the gospel of grace. There was a reason Jesus, waited until after Stephen's stoneing to raise Paul up, Jesus wanted the others to be a witness in Israel.

Peter never went to Rome, Joseph of Arimathea, a Counsellor/Doctor of the Law, Lazarus, and Mary Magdalene never went to England and France.. These Jew's stayed in thier homeland, for the most part, they found Peters ossuary in Israel.

The church has traditions, made by replacement teaching gentiles, who tried to rid the Jewish message of the bible, like the fact that easter is really the Jewish Passover meal, these gentiles, knew the more relics and saints you had, the more power. Some of them had people killed or caused people to be killed..

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost".

The false gnostic text of "secret Thomas" goes along with the rummer that Thomas went to India,

The many Islamic and Hindu historical works recording local history and legends of kings, noblemen and saints of the areas thought to be travelled by Jesus also give evidence of a Christ like man; the Koran, for example, refers to Christ as "Issar". Further east, the Kurdish tribes of Eastern Anatolia have several stories describing Christ's stay in Eastern Turkey after his resurrection. These traditional legends have been ignored by the theological community.

Kersten also suggests that prior to Christ's mission in the Middle East, he may have been exposed to Buddhist teachings in Egypt. After his birth in Bethlehem, his family fled to Egypt to avoid Herod's persecution. Surprisingly some scholars now acknowledge that Buddhist schools probably existed in Alexandria long before the Christian era.

More clues are drawn from the Apocrypha. These are texts said to have been written by the Apostles but which are not officially accepted by the Church. Indeed, the Church regards them as heresy since a substantial amount of the Apocrypha directly contradicts Church dogma and theology. The Apocryphal 'Acts of Thomas', for example, tell how Christ met Thomas several times after the Crucifixion. In fact they tell us how Christ sent Thomas to teach his spirituality in India. This is corroborated by evidence found in the form of stone inscriptions at Fatehpur Sikri, near the Taj Mahal, in Northern India. They include "Agrapha", which are sayings of Christ that don't exist in the mainstream Bible. Their grammatical form is most similar to that of the Apocryphal gospel of Thomas. This is but one example giving credibility to the idea that texts not recognised by the Church hold important clues about Christ's true life and his teachings.

In tracing Christ's movements to India and beyond, Kersten also discovered that many of his teachings, which have been gradually edited out of the modern Bible were originally Eastern in nature. Principles such as karma and re-incarnation, for example, were common knowledge then, and seem to have been reaffirmed by Christ. Imagine the implications that this discovery holds for Western Christianity and its churches, who have kept Christ in their doctrinal top pockets and have constrained the entire Western culture within the narrow teachings of blind faith, organised religion and original sin!

Further clues are cited from The Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, and the Gospel of Thomas which are of Syrian origin and have

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm