Pauline Dispensationalism

[kenod]

My post
"Paul was sent to the gentiles, with the gospel of grace. There was a reason Jesus, waited until after Stephen's stoneing to raise Paul up, Jesus wanted the others to be a witness in Israel.

Then He should not have told them to go into all the world:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[CarolLyn]

I won't answer for God's Trombone, but I think if you put the kingdom, law and prophecy together and then the Body of Christ, mystery and pure grace together, it makes perfect sense. In the gospels and most of the Jewish epistles, the Jews are looking for the kingdom. They believe Christ is returning very soon and they wanted to be ready to rule the tribes of Israel, as Christ promised them. That the Gentiles would be saved is part of prophecy. But if you watch, the Jews are still mostly under Law - they are still worshiping at the Temple, keeping Sabbath, (mostly) keeping kosher and the other laws. They are watiting for the wrath and vexation and then the Messianic Kingdom to be ushered in. They never speak of the Body of Christ, the rapture, the mystery, or put sanctification, justification, and glorification in the way that Paul does (if they mention those things at all).

Then along comes Paul and the dispensation he received from Christ. He is told that Gentiles and Jews alike can now be saved simply by believing. Paul is the only one to lay out the clear message of salvation in his letters. He doesn't speak of the coming Kingdom - he speaks of the Rapture. He says this new organism - the body of Christ - will be kept from the wrath. He tells his assemblies that they will be removed and go to dwell with Christ always. He tells them they don't need to DO anything - they are saved by faith by grace. Not saved by faith, justified by Works, Not saved by Christ's blood, but keep all the commandments. Not saved by Faith, but get circumcised. Not saved by faith, but keep all the days and months and years of holy days.

So the good news as it invovles Christ being the son of God, that he was crucified and his blood covers are sin, that he is the propitiation, the way to salvation - all of that is the same. But faith alone, the mystery of the Body of Christ, the methods of justification, the fact that the moment we believe we become part of Christ and our home is in heaven.... and perhaps the most glorious - we are instantly sanctified, justified, glorified and indwelt by the Holy Spirit because we're part of the Body of Christ - that when God looks at us, he sees Christ - that is all Mystery, all part of Paul's gospel.
Paul brought his mystery to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Paul did not preach in Jerusalem, but to Jews in the dispersion. He faced opposition from Judaizers who wanted ALL to keep the law - Gentiles and Jews alike. He faced opposition initially from the 12 - he had a heck of a time convincing them of his authority and the new message. Paul had the hardest job in the world - bring the message to the Gentiles.. and to the Jews! His message was more radical in some ways than Jesus's message - everything Jesus said was prohpecied. What Paul had to teach was mostly unprophecied and Mystery.

Most of the alleged contradictions in the Bible, and many of the denominational differences stem from not recognizing these differences.

After the Body of Christ is raptured (Christ is the head of this living organism, which is in Heaven, even when a portion of the body is still physically on earth), and the Tribulation starts..... what parts of the bible will be the most helpful to those going through those years and preparing to enter the Kingdom?

It will be the gospels and Hebrews through Revelation. Paul's teaching will be for their learning, it will be evidence of God's grace and more proof that God's Word is true, but Paul's message will NOT be for their doctrine. The 144,000 will be Jews who will again preach like Peter did. Repent, my fellow Jews, for the Kingdom is at hand! They will bring the message to Gentiles too. And they will all go through the Tribulation and those who survive will enter the MK.... just like Jesus promised, just like the Hebrews - Revelation books teach. Those books will be 100% relevant to those living in the tribulation. It will be as if it were 35 or so AD again. You can remove Paul's teachings and all the Mystery of the Body of Christ - and the program for the world will flow on in perfect harmony with what Jesus preached in his earthly ministry and Peter, James and John wrote in their epistles.
As for the Body of Christ - we'll be with our Lord forever already. :yay

Hmmmm.....

Finally, after 10 pages of posting, someone has clearly explained this point of view... It is very interesting. I can't say I'm convinced... I'll have to do some more thinking and praying..... :thinking

[HeIsEnough]

Finally, after 10 pages of posting, someone has clearly explained this point of view...

GT spelled out the most clear distinctions separating pauline from just regular ole dispensational teachings, that being the two gospels and the two bodies.

Much of the post you quoted is standard dispensational teaching which follows the progressive nature of the new testament teaching. IE, events and truths were progressively revealed to the early believers, culminating in the full revelation Christ promised, but did not give, before His ascension.

A simple summation between the differing views can be seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism

[Aliya]

Then He should not have told them to go into all the world:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This is where I finally saw the difference! What message did Peter have at this point in Mark 16:15 or Acts 1:8?

He had the good news that Messiah had come, that Jesus had died and rose again, and that he would be returning after the wrath and vexation to set up his kingdom. He was telling the Jews to repent of rejecting their Messiah (Remember Christ had to die - that isn't why God set them aside; God set them aside because they continued in rejection of him as a people - individuals believed - but as a nation, as God's chosen people, they rejected him - and in doing so they rejected the imminent arrival of the MK, though they didn't understand that and most certainly didn't know for how long at the time). That is the ONLY message that Peter knew. That is the ONLY message the 12 could preach.

Only after Stephen is stoned, Paul is converted and taken off into Arabia for some one on one time with Christ do we get the gospel of pure grace. Why? To make the Jews jealous! To provoke them to believe (Romans 11:14).

Now, there is nothing Paul wrote that indicated he knew that there was going to be a 2000 year delay either. But his dispensation of the gospel was a saved by faith alone gospel that made Gentiles equal to Jews and did not require any law-keeping. That was unkown in the Gospels and the early part of Acts. It is unique to Paul - given to him for us. Note that only Paul teaches the rapture, the keeping of the Body of Christ from Wrath. The twelve knew NOTHING about that. IT was not revealed to them. It was part of the mystery.

The only message that the twelve could have taken to the world was the same good news Jesus himself spoke of and John the Baptist before him - repent, for the kingdom of God is near! The 12 had the cross, yes, and knew that part of prophecy was fulfilled in that their Messiah had to die to bear their sin. But they knew nothing of Paul's charge or his new message (Faith alone, Jews=Gentiles, no Lawkeeping).

We are saved by what Paul taught, not Peter in Mark and Acts. That is nothing against Peter or John or the twelve! But those who stake their salvation on what the twelve preached are the same people who are struggling over what they have to DO to be saved, what parts of the law they have to keep. Peter was a Jew under law. Jesus's earthly ministry was a Jew under law! We are not Jews under law, praise the Lord!

This is the great Mystery, this is why grace is so AMAZING! Paul was told to tell us we could be saved by FAITH ALONE! Isnt' that amazing? Isn't that Good News?! (oops, I get a little carried away :) )

Those who were supposed to fulfill the Great Commission were the 12. Every Jew was to be a priest, a way to God for the Gentiles.

Under Paul, we are to be ambassadors for Christ, bringing the message of reconiliation with God to the whole world (2Cor5:18-21). It is still a great commission - but our message is Pauls' message - ALL can be saved by FAITH ALONE - not the message the Jews would have brought to the world. But the Jews will do that - the 144,000 will pick up that original Great Commission very soon. :yay

[Aliya]

Hmmmm.....

Finally, after 10 pages of posting, someone has clearly explained this point of view... It is very interesting. I can't say I'm convinced... I'll have to do some more thinking and praying..... :thinking

Oh, do pray! I pleaded with God to help me in a defense of scriptures over some alleged contradictions. And oh, has the HOly Spirit done that! I am so excited I can hardly contain myself. I pray the same for you!!!:wave

(and a word of advice, take it or ignore me - skip what theologians say. Skip all the types of theology around covenant and reform and dispensation and not - I started it and got lost in all the names. I don't want what Man says, anyway. We shouldn't need seminary degrees to understand this, especially since we have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit really nudged me to READ IT FOR MYSELF and HE would help me to understand. Someday perhaps I'll read the theology, but not now.). :)

[Harley]

Hey bro, you're more than welcome to join in. :nod

I'm not exactly sure, but there are no limits on post count for a thread. This may go on for a while...

On the former site they closed automatically on the 251st post... guess we'll see.

[BlessedinHim]

Kinda-of-a-drag when you find a thread 11 pages long, it's way too late to adequately join the sidcussion... but I'll just pop in with a generic contribution voicing an opposing belief... I believe there is but one Gospel, not two. By extension then I probably disagree with most of the subsequent dominoes as well.

I am with you. I cant see 2 gospels, and in the Pauline writings, it says there is no difference concerning the gospel to Jews, Gentile, bond or free.

[BlessedinHim]

Acts 1:6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Here, the Apostles are clearly sent to everyone. Jews first, all Judea, then Samaria(half Jews) then to the rest(Gentiles).

Will the Holy Spirit have 2 messages? That does not make sense that the Holy Spirit would have 2 different messages. That would be like having 2 bosses. Confusing.

[God's Trombone]

That last sentence is indeed wonderful, and I totally agree with it.

Can you state briefly for me the significance of separating the message to Jewish believers and the message to the Gentile believers? Are you saying that some parts of the 4 Gospels, and the writings of Peter, James, John and Jude are not relevant for Gentile believers?

I will do my best.
First, let's be clear that the Pauline scriptures I have described as "Mystery" tell us that a Jew and Gentile today must believe the one Gospel that is the Gospel of our salvation (Eph. 1:13 , I Cor. 15:1-4). When we speak of "separate messages" we mean the side by side messages when both the kingdom saints and the Body of Christ saints were alive on earth. This period is chronicled in Acts and is generally the telling about the stumbling, fall and finally the casting out of Israel for their rejection of Christ, and the calling of Saul of Tarsus to be Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles. Romans contains the why and wherefore of God doing this.Particularly, chapters 9-11 explain Israel's place in God's plans.

The significance of separating those two messages is to rightly divide the Word of Truth (II Tim. 2:15/ Eph. 1:13.) The mixing of the two messages occurs when anyone implies that those preaching the kingdom on earth message (John the Baptist, Jesus in the flesh, and the 12 Apostles)preached the same message as Christ only revealed to Paul.
They didn't because it was hidden (mystery.)What ensues when this mixing is done is confusion because theologians and pastors and teachers start putting things into the Gospel that they "pick up from the kingdom Gospel." This makes their Gospel a perversion, what Paul called "another Gospel."
Such things as tithing, water baptism, keeping days, and other works of the law are added on top of Paul's Gospel which contains none of such works.

Romans 11:6,6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Law and grace cannot be mixed before God.

Christ gave to Paul a good news message new and different than He gave to the kingdom saints. It has no conection to Israel, nor to the law.

You further asked:
Are you saying that some parts of the 4 Gospels, and the writings of Peter, James, John and Jude are not relevant for Gentile believers?

I am saying that Paul's message from Christ gives us our good news, and the writings you list give a different good news to a different group not of the Body of Christ we are part of. That doesn't say the writings are "not relevant to us". They are not sent TO us.Our own Apostle wrote:
II Tim. 3:1516 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

He also wrote about "my Gospel" and the Gospel of "your" salvation. He specifically addressed his letters to the Body of Christ, just as the others addressed theirs to their own audience.

[BlessedinHim]

Acts 2:29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.