Pauline Dispensationalism

[God's Trombone]

Words still mean something GT, and specific words are needed to show the true intentions. The characterizations by Stam are not accurate. You have not understood my intentions and characterizations of the scriptural record all along. Adding more pages will not be sufficient, I'm afraid.

What would be sufficient, as far as I can tell, would be to quote Christ's own words to someone. If they are somewhat perplexed, consult Paul's words to clarify the meaning. If you cannot understand that, I don't have anything else to offer.

Sigh.
OK. You have me pretty well convinced we are not getting anywhere; however, let me point out that Paul understood (Romans 15:8)that Christ in the flesh didn't speak anything of what he revealed to Paul. That is why Paul calls it a mystery. Something hidden in God and "unsearchable." E.g. It was not in the prophetic scriptures at all. Therefore, Paul's teachings are notin any way explanations, nor further wisdom and understanding of Christ's message to Israel, as you say.

[God's Trombone]

You also asked if it could be any clearer. If it were so clear it would be a issue that was settled and accepted by historic orthodox theology.
Harley

Harley, if I understand "historic orthodox theology" as you do, I can explain why it was not "settled and accepted". It is an understanding of Paul's message that was suppressed in the earliest times since Paul wrote it down. It is now being re-established among believers.


In just a couple lines, what is the difference between the two Gospels?
Harley

So as not to wander too far off I will defer to what Stam said above:

In the light of these Scriptures it is difficult to understand how anyone can argue that Paul’s ministry was merely a perpetuation of that of the twelve, or that "the gospel of the kingdom" and "the gospel of the grace of God" are identical.
If the above passage teaches anything clearly, it teaches the unique character of Paul’s apostleship and message. The Apostle devotes almost two chapters of his letter to the Galatians to the fact that he had not received his message from the twelve, but rather had communicated to the twelve.
He stresses the fact that those who had first been sent to all nations (with the kingdom/circumcision Gospel), "beginning at Jerusalem," had now, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, agreed to turn over their Gentile ministry (which was not the Gospel of the Grace of God) to him that he might proclaim far and wide "the gospel of the grace of God," as found in Eph. 2:8,9 and Rom. 3:24.

[Harley]

Harley, if I understand "historic orthodox theology" as you do, I can explain why it was not "settled and accepted". It is an understanding of Paul's message that was suppressed in the earliest times since Paul wrote it down. It is now being re-established among believers.

That's one of the issues that bother's me. Anytime someone says a new doctrine has been discovered/uncovered that the church has missed or suppressed throughout it's history I see red flags...

[Harley]

I see quite clearly that they decided to go to two different audiences. I do not see that they carried two Gospels.

'Course, I also see no difference between Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven either.

[Harley]

For example, throughout the book of Acts we see Jesus preached to Jews as "Messiah" and to Gentiles as "Lord." Two different words. Does this mean there are two messages,? Does it mean Jesus is Messiah to Jews but Lord to Gentiles?

No, it means that they tailored the message (not the truth itself but the way it was communicated) to fit the audience.

[HeIsEnough]

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :lol2

Sigh.
OK. You have me pretty well convinced we are not getting anywhere; however, let me point out that Paul understood (Romans 15:8)that Christ in the flesh didn't speak anything of what he revealed to Paul.

Well I'd have to read the whole thread again, but I'm not sure I can relate my thoughts any differently.

Since you brought that verse up, Paul also says in verse 4 whatsoever was written before was for our learning. I can quote many of His sayings and teachings which are validated in our lives today, expounded in detail in the words of Paul. Though I know that won't mean much to you. I will tell you that by maintaining your stance, you lose the connection of the message. Christ heralded the age to come, and that included our age of grace. His own prophecies foretold of when......"this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Sorry brother, but that is pretty darn clear, and I too have a problem how anyone can argue with that.

Though I see some validity to what you say in terms of the some aspects of Paul's teachings, however you invalidate your own words by completely disconnecting him from Christ's teachings. As I said in the other thread, this teaching has caused defamation to the scriptural record.

That is why Paul calls it a mystery. Something hidden in God and "unsearchable." E.g. It was not in the prophetic scriptures at all. Therefore, Paul's teachings are notin any way explanations, nor further wisdom and understanding of Christ's message to Israel, as you say.

I have posted thrice before to you the complete thoughts Paul had on what he termed 'the mystery', several mysteries actually. On one occasion he included all the Apostles as sharing in it, and he pointed to the message given to the prophets of old as his (a) source. He persuaded many Jews using these same prophetic writings, giving them the true spiritual meaning that God intended, and emphatically claimed Christ as fulfilling many old testament prophecies. He trained in this, learning from the Spirit Himself, after his conversion on the road to Damascus. I think in this regard, more of our problem is that we don't know the old testament as well as we could.

[God's Trombone]

I have posted thrice before to you the complete thoughts Paul had on what he termed 'the mystery', several mysteries actually. On one occasion he included all the Apostles as sharing in it, and he pointed to the message given to the prophets of old as his (a) source. He persuaded many Jews using these same prophetic writings, giving them the true spiritual meaning that God intended, and emphatically claimed Christ as fulfilling many old testament prophecies. He trained in this, learning from the Spirit Himself, after his conversion on the road to Damascus. I think in this regard, more of our problem is that we don't know the old testament as well as we could.
__________________

I take from this that you take Paul's announcing that his revelation "was hidden from the foundation of the world" to not mean what it says, but that he meant "was hidden in the scriptures."

I would say that's quite a large "departure." :)

[God's Trombone]

For example, throughout the book of Acts we see Jesus preached to Jews as "Messiah" and to Gentiles as "Lord." Two different words. Does this mean there are two messages,? Does it mean Jesus is Messiah to Jews but Lord to Gentiles?

No, it means that they tailored the message (not the truth itself but the way it was communicated) to fit the audience.

The content of what Peter preached to Israel is one thing: Christ rose from the dead to be King of Israel.

The content of Paul's Gospel he received from the Lord in heaven is another thing: Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, the church. The Jews he preached to came into the Body. He didn't preach what Peter preached about going into the Kingdom on earth with Christ ruling from David's throne in Jerusalem. One has to see that God has a separate destiny for Israel, to be fulfilled after the Body of Christ is filled up in this age.

[Harley]

I take from this that you take Paul's announcing that his revelation "was hidden from the foundation of the world" to not mean what it says, but that he meant "was hidden in the scriptures."

I would say that's quite a large "departure." :)

A rather loaded statement to say "take...to not mean what it says..."

If the Gospel to the Jews is different - how so? And were any Jews saved before it was rediscovered?

[Harley]

I posted the above question while you were answering it - thanks.