Pauline Dispensationalism

[Lexie]

I'm way confused by your post!! :idunno maybe you could give more description re: how this relates to what we are talking about here? Maybe I just missed something. that is always a possibility! :hehee

Beth O
Tim King Church of Christ, teaches a form of progressive dispensationism, where Jesus, is sitting on David's throne, now, ruling the Kingdom, through his Presence, in us. :)

[Topped 3]

This thread has taken so many directions and dragged on so long I believe the Moderators rightfully abandoned it.Somebody lock it already , please?

[HeIsEnough]

This thread has taken so many directions and dragged on so long I believe the Moderators rightfully abandoned it.Somebody lock it already , please?

I'm fairly certain the mods don't operate that way....and, they never were involved in it.

[HeIsEnough]

Beth O
Tim King Church of Christ, teaches a form of progressive dispensationism, where Jesus, is sitting on David's throne, now, ruling the Kingdom, through his Presence, in us. :)

That is not what people involved in this thread believe Lexie. At best it can be said that Christ rules all who are in Him, right now. PD describes it as Christ reigning from David's throne at present...invisibly if you will.....but it will be visibly present in the MK. Merely semantics, imo.

The scriptures teach that He has...


Ephesians 2:5-7

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The Lord treats what will be, as is already.

No dispensationalist I know extends that into 'Kingdom Now' theology. We understand it to be the viewpoint of God, because of His lofty vantage point. In the "ages to come", all men will see it as God sees it right now. How He sees it, is a tad above my pay grade. :lol2

[HeIsEnough]

I would be very interested in a thread on a 'complete whole' for all the 'household' of God.


It may not be as complete as it can be, but here is a start. We can pull this out to a new thread if you think it should be...

The Last Age.


1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was raised first. And at present, is the only one who has been raised. The Rapture, is pictured here, "when He comes" ever so briefly. We will be "changed" "in the twinkling of an eye"

The interlude not in picture here, is the Millennial Kingdom, as described by Peter here:


Acts 3

17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ[a] would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

24"Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'[c] 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

An important note; "and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus" Peter was telling them that God will send the Christ again. But he structured it with "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets." Which harkens back to Christ's words to the disciples when they asked the question to Christ. 'Will you now restore the Kingdom to Israel?' Of course Christ told them it was 'not for them to know the times and epochs, or ages.

At the end of the Kingdom age, we can surely see there still remains rebellion.(Satan is loosed for a season) Not all has been subdued, and death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.


1 Corinthians 15

24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [B]26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Here is the description from Revelation 20


Revelation 20

The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


1 Cor 15
27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

And the rest of the Revelation is the "all in all."


Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[a]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits[b] thick,[c] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[d] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It is my reading of the chapters of 21 and 22 of the Revelation that there will be no more distinction between peoples. All things are new, including our relationship with each other. Some have made some hay with various words within the text of these last two chapters. I'm not persuaded. It is clear to me the MK is temporal, but not all dispensationalists view it this way, in my understanding. Some have physical Israel remaining that way forever....seemingly. The 'household' of God is one, and God is one with His 'household', or family. The Son has turned over all kingdoms, including the MK. All men have eternal bodies, and we live in an eternal state.

[BlessedinHim]

Hey brought my laptop on my trip. It isn't the same message they first had to accept John's water baptism, given to Israel;John1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. They had this before the cross but the one being manifest had died was the only change.For us no not for me i'm not Israel, again Matthew10(Kingdom of heaven)and the above verse baptised to manifest Christ TO ISRAEL isn't for me a Gentile.

John was preparing the way. John 1 The point is, that no one comes to the Father except they go to the Son. John 14:6
The problem lies in the fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, they are still under the law.

They were blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25 However, a key word to look at is in part, so apparently not all Jews were blinded all the way or none of them would have come to Christ at all. In the meantime, the gospel was preached to the Jews first, Romans 1:16 that message being the one that Peter and Paul and the apostles Acts 9, Acts 10, Acts 11 all preached after the ascension.

***** Hmm, here I come across an interesting thing.

Acts 11:25Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

27And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.

Acts 12:25And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.

Acts 9:26And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

27But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Galatians 1:17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

20Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

These parts I do not understand. Unless the Galatians incident was before Barnabas took him to the Apostles?

*****



Until the ascension, the Holy Ghost was not sealed in man. So, there is another difference between the law and Grace. In the law times, the Holy Spirit came and went as needed or as God saw fit. After the ascension, it is then sealed, never to depart.

After the cross, the penalty for sin had been satisfied, before the cross, the penalty still had not been satisfied, thereby necessitating the sacrifice of animals. In Galatians, they were warned that they could not come to Christ and then return to Judaism and then come back to Christ again, for it would put Christ to an open shame. Galatians 5

Jesus said there is only one way, if there were 2 gospels, would that not make 2 ways?

I can agree there were 2 different groups to preach to, and that would perhaps be cause for 2 different styles of preaching the gospel, but the essence of the gospel is one. Saved by Grace through faith alone.

[gregbed]

Thanks, Beth O, for the article. It is excellent! I read the whole article and pasted it to a MS word document to read again later. I really would like to know more about Progressive Disp. Was that explained in the article under a different name? I get all these names mixed up. Never knew that Ultra Disp. was called Pauline until this tread. :idunno Anyway, any more info you can give about Progressive would be appreciated....or maybe you would be willing to start a new thread? Anyway, thanks again!

Here's is a quick synopsis by an advocate http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/prodisp.html
But if you really want to get it from the horse's mouth you should read "Progressive Dispensationalism" by Darrell Bock and Craig Blaising. I could probably dig up a journal
article by Bock or Blaising that would be shorter than reading a book if you are interested.
Although I don't hold to PD, or even D, I have a lot of respect for them as they were the first dispensationalists who went out and actually engaged in a conversation with others who disagreed with them, listened to valid criticisms and modified their positions accordingly.
There is some similar activity in Covenant Theology in something known as New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am not real familiar with it, but from what I read the idea is to recognize the dissimilarities between the OT & NT and not just flatten it out under one covenant of grace - after all, much is made in the NT of the fact that there is a NEW covenant.

[CarolLyn]

CaroLyn,

Barbara Marx Hubbard, Brian Mclaren, Leonard Sweet, Tim King, Marcus Borg, Jay Gary, Ken Wilber, Jesus Seminar ect are one of the Emergent Church dominionists groups, you have to study, what they are saying, to see what "The Presence" and co-creators in the Kingdom means..They are part if the URI religion at the UN. Some of The manifest son's of God, prophets, are leaning towards it, it shares in mysicism, Sufism, Buddism, ect the mysticism aspects, it's basically the same thing.
http://www.presence.tv/cms/books.php

http://www.wnrf.org/cms/associates.shtml


Paul said, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Cor 5:17). God calls us by faith to give ourselves to these new possibilities and to be social architects – to shape the future through originality, creativity, vision and leadership.

http://www.transmillennial.com/articles/firstthings.htm



http://www.levitt.com/essays/progdisp.html

Wow Lexie! That's some wierd stuff! Those top three links seem to be bordering on the occult! :scratch Thanks for the zola levitt link though. It's very helpful! I wasn't really looking for an in depth study of Progressive Disp., just a general explanation of what its views are, since HIE briefly mentioned it but didn't explain it. :)

[CarolLyn]

Here's is a quick synopsis by an advocate http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/prodisp.html
But if you really want to get it from the horse's mouth you should read "Progressive Dispensationalism" by Darrell Bock and Craig Blaising. I could probably dig up a journal
article by Bock or Blaising that would be shorter than reading a book if you are interested.
Although I don't hold to PD, or even D, I have a lot of respect for them as they were the first dispensationalists who went out and actually engaged in a conversation with others who disagreed with them, listened to valid criticisms and modified their positions accordingly.
There is some similar activity in Covenant Theology in something known as New Covenant Theology (NCT). I am not real familiar with it, but from what I read the idea is to recognize the dissimilarities between the OT & NT and not just flatten it out under one covenant of grace - after all, much is made in the NT of the fact that there is a NEW covenant.
:thumb Thanks, gregbed.

[HeIsEnough]

Anyway, any more info you can give about Progressive would be appreciated....or maybe you would be willing to start a new thread? Anyway, thanks again!

Sorry CarolLyn...it got late when I made my last post, for me anyway. I wanted to get to this this morning. I think Greg did an excellent job identifying a key feature to these discussions and these systematic theologies, "engaged in a conversation with others who disagreed with them, listened to valid criticisms and modified their positions accordingly." Some find weakness in doing something like this, I find a true Berean must do this, especially when you will not compromise with what you have studied, and are fully persuaded of some things. Consequently, I don't necessarily hold to any particular systematic theology, though I will say I am Dispensationalist to the core, and lean in what is described as Revised, with elements of all the others. I see problems with them all, and that will not be conducive to being endeared by any of them. At this point in my life, I think it foolish to think we can extract the in-extractable from God's holy word. As if God should have just shortcuted to "us", and we would have explained it much simpler!

As you research this, you will find the standard debasing of everyone else, to the exclusion of "us", as in we are right "they are all wrong". I'm so tired of this principle between Covenant and Hyper-Dispensationalists, that I am apt to say 'bah' to all of them. Many give much traction to their particular hermeneutic, the most important one which is lost is the Holy Spirit and you, understanding what God is teaching. Here (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:KeDeRWXXjecJ:faculty.bbc.edu/mstallard/Biblical_Studies/Eschatology/PDChallenge.doc+progressive+dispensationalism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=30&gl=us) is one summation of the differences between, and seems to shed more light then heat, something lost upon the many strident voices out there. Here (http://www.revsdsmith.org/pd.htm) is another mans view which points out issues I have seen as well.

There is much online, but acquiring Bock's book along with reading Chafer's theology is a good place to start. In short, your own understanding must be resolved by points others bring up, then you will more then likely end up with a hybrid theology, and not be liked much by the extremes. Rather than posting much here, I think a new thread would be a good place to start.