Pauline Dispensationalism

[Mechaberean]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechaberean
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."----------Yep blessed through Israel and meeting in synagogues as Jews or blessing Israel with much alms is what gentiles would be doing if the nation accepted Jesus.(sheep nations,or goat=blessing Israel or not)

What does this state? The promise is for you and your children referring to Jewish people then what does it state: AND FOR ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF—FOR ALL WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD WILL CALL. -----------No God's chosen nation is over other nations when teh focus; the others are goat and sheep nations;those who oppose or help or become Israel; proselytes your people are mine your God mine Like as in Ruth1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God.(Ruth became a Jew)

[Mechaberean]

Israel as a nation rejected Jesus so God turned to the Gentiles it was a slow diminishing but blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL(that time) the Fulness of the Gentiles come in; so wether Jewish or Gentile its a Gentile period all things that pertain to the Jewish church are on hold until the rapture.

[Mechaberean]

The Jewish nation no longer meet in synagogues but have come out if a believer and join us. Until Jacobs trouble

[God's Trombone]

Israel as a nation rejected Jesus so God turned to the Gentiles it was a slow diminishing but blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL(that time) the Fulness of the Gentiles come in; so whether Jewish or Gentile its a Gentile period all things that pertain to the Jewish church are on hold until the rapture.

That is absolutely "scriptural!"

This thread has been a "struggle" at times for me, and I think I have discovered that it is because I sometimes lose sight of verities I once learned when "proof verses" are used to debate against, for example the quote above.

I submit to all those reading or posting here that the scriptures indicate very clearly when studied carefully that God sovereignly INTERRUPTED His dealings with His people Israel for a secret length of time, but that He will CONTINUE dealing with them in accordance with the same plan beginning at the end of the INTERRUPTION.

It follows that what transpires in the period of this INTERRUPTION was "unsearchable" in the prophetic scripture.

So there is a very important PURPOSE in understanding that in the scriptures two distinct "good news" were being preached at the juncture when the INTERRUPTION occurred. That there was an OVERLAP was necessitated by the fact that only God knew the precise point when He cast Israel away to become one and the same with rebellious Gentiles.

The two "good news" messages were:
1. That to Israel, according to the prophetic scriptures.

2. That to the Gentiles, to be in effect while the INTERRUPTION endured.

The PURPOSE I am pointing to is to defend the truth above from those who deny or just can't quite discern that the INTERRUPTION has taken place.

That error leads to taking the separate messages and putting them together so to make it appear that we today are to be +burdened down with an uncertain blending of conflicting directives on "what is the Gospel?"; or "can I know I am
eternally saved?"; or "what must I do to be saved?"

Recognizing that our's is a salvation distinct and apart from God's dealings with Israel, and that it is only going to be here until the INTERRUPTION is past and we are caught up to be with the Lord forever will answer all those kinds of confused questions. That is why I consider this thread critical and I continue to study and learn to make these truths more clear to myself.

[DJHere]

You posted this scripture:

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

You stated:

Yep blessed through Israel and meeting in synagogues as Jews or blessing Israel with much alms is what gentiles would be doing if the nation accepted Jesus.(sheep nations,or goat=blessing Israel or not)

I answered:

What does this state? The promise is for you and your children referring to Jewish people then what does it state: AND FOR ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF—FOR ALL WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD WILL CALL.

Who does God call? All believers!

So that statement is not just referencing the nation of Israel is it?

You responded:

No God's chosen nation is over other nations when teh focus;
Israel was not ruling over other nations when these events took place nor are they given special treatment where the gospel is concerned for Romans 3 and 10 clearly teach:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Who does God's righteosness come to? All who believe!

There is no what? Difference!

Why?

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.


6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The nation of Israel were the first to receive the gospel because the promises were made to them (see Romans chapters 9-11).

Matthew 15 records:

21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matt. 15)

When the nation rejected Jesus the message was given to the world which was God's intention all along as what is recorded in Romans 9 and 15 clearly shows:

25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' " (Romans 9)



8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
I will sing hymns to your name." 10Again, it says,
"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people." 11And again,
"Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and sing praises to him, all you peoples." 12And again, Isaiah says,
"The Root of Jesse will spring up,
one who will arise to rule over the nations;
the Gentiles will hope in him." (Romans 15)


Acts 13 records Paul preached to the nation but when they rejected the message he told them he would take it to the Gentiles as God had instructed:

38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.'"
44On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and talked abusively against what Paul was saying.

46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" (Acts 13)


Acts 26 records Jesus told Paul:

15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'

" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Who is the word them referring to? Both Jews and Gentiles!


As for this statment:

the others are goat and sheep nations;those who oppose or help or become Israel;
No other nation ever becomes Israel nor does God's word teach they do. Jews and Gentiles are seen as being one in Christ, but a Jew does not become a Gentile anymore than a Gentile becomes a Jew. Romans 10 records:

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Paul is not teaching Gentiles become Jews in this statement is he? What was Paul teaching? That in Christ Jews and Gentiles are seen in the same light. Eph. chapters 2 and 3 do not teach Gentiles becomes Jews either for what do they record:

11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2)

What allows us to share with Israel in the promise? The blood of Christ!

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Where does this teach a Gentile becomes a Jew? It doesn't! It is teaching Jews and Gentiles become members of one body in Christ.

Eph. 2 goes on to state:

17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

He came and preached peace to who? You were far away referring to who? The Gentiles! And To those who were what? Near! Referring to who? The Jews. How do we know those who are far off if referring to Gentiles? Because verse 18 states: 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Thus showing that when Peter stated:The promise is for you and your children referring to Jewish people then what does it state: AND FOR ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF—FOR ALL WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD WILL CALL.

He was not speaking of Jewish people only, but of all those, Jew and Gentile alike, who would place their belief in Jesus.

And what does Eph. 3 record:

2Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

Who made it known to God's apostles and prophets? The Holy Spirit!

What did He make known to them?

6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

This does not teach other nations become Israel, but that they share with Israel in the promise. How? Through Jesus!

When was this fact made known to the others? I believe through Peter's experience with Cornelius:

30Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' 33So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. (Acts 10)

Acts 11 records:

1The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."
4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'

8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'

9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11"Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Eph. 3:6 states very clearly:

6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.[/color]

Clearly showing other nations do not "become Israel" as you stated but share with Israel in the promise.

[BlessedinHim]

Jesus dying on the cross was clearly prophesied. When Jesus came, the Jews were looking for a political leader, and Jesus was not to be a political leader of the day. they had not all read their prophecies correctly. So when they see that Jesus is not that political leader, but seems to lead people away from Judaism (in their eyes, this is what He was doing). This would be the blindness they had to the Messiah, for if they had seen clearly that He was the Messiah and if they had understood exactly who He was, they would not have crucified Him. They were not only blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, but they had to be blinded so he could become the perfect sacrifice to satisfy the law. Praise God that He blinded them for a season. Jesus therefore is the fulfilling of the first half of the story. The Jews just dont realize that yet.

During the great Tribulation, the temple sacrifices will begin again, because they still dont accept their Messiah. Not until the end of the Great Tribulation.

(Does anyone have scripture to say that they will be doing sacrifices in the Millenial Kingdom? I am confused on this point, for once they accept Jesus, there should be no need to do sacrifice, but for some reason in the back of my mind, seems that there has been some that says they do.)

When Jesus died on the cross, he fulfilled the law, by being the perfect sacrifice.

Romans 5:18-20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:



Hebrews 7:26-28 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


They were given shadows of what is to come. If you look at their holy days, you will see that they have the story of what is to come. Jesus coming and what was gonna happen to him, what was going to happen to them, all has been prophesied to them. Their customs and holy days paint pictures of the truth that is coming.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.



One gospel, 2 sets of people in different places in the gospel story, in the end to the same destination. It isnt a different gospel, they just havent got to the Messiah yet.

[DJHere]

Nothings perfect until 2nd Corinthians not even salvation.This statement is simply not true for two reasons. First, nothing will be perfect until Jesus comes and restores everything. Second because Acts 5 records:

17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out.20"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said,"and tell the people the full (or as the NASB translates it whole) message of this new life."

So who has it right you or God's word?


everythings in part but when that which is perfect is come then the in part is done away with.
Let's look at the verse you are referencing in the context it was written. The verse you are referencing is found in 1 Cor. 13, a passage dealing with love and Spiritual gifts.

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

What is Paul teaching here? Is he stating perfection has already come? NO as The Bible Knowledge Commentary explains when it notes:

What Paul meant when he referred to the coming of perfection is the subject of considerable debate. One suggestion is that perfection described the completion of the New Testament. But verse 12 makes that interpretation unlikely. A few have suggested that this state of perfection will not be reached until the new heavens and new earth are established. Another point of view understands perfection to describe the state of the church when God's program for it is consummated at the coming of Christ. There is much to commend this view, including the natural accord it enjoys with the illustration of growth and maturity which Paul used in the following verses.

13:11 Paul elsewhere described the purpose of gifts by an illustration employing the imagery of growth and maturity. According to Ephesians 4:11-16, the gifts were to be used to bring the church from a state of infancy to adulthood. THe word translated "mature" in that passage (Eph. 4:13) is the word translated "perfection" (teleion) in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In the Ephesians passage, maturity is defined as "attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Such a state will obviously not exist until Christ's second coming.
It would appear that the same perspective was developed in this passage to the Corinthians. Paul applied the illustration to himself (cf. vv. 1-3). The threefold talking, thinking, and reasoning were probably meant to balance the thrice-mentioned gifts (v. 8). With the coming of adulthood, such gifts become passe. Paul's use of the word became (gegona, a perf. tense verb, probably proleptic; cf. Romans 13:8; 1 Cor. 14:23) was of course to be understood in the context of the illustration. It does not indicate that he personally or the church collectively had yet arrived at that point (cf. Philippians 3:12). It would not, on the other hand, necessarily rule out a gradual obsolescence of certain gifts as the church progressed toward maturity.

13:12 A city like Corinth, famous for its bronze mirrors, would have particularly appreciated Paul's final illustration. The perfection and imperfection mentioned in verse 10 were deftly likened to the contrasting images obtained by the indirect reflection of one's face viewed in a bronze mirror and the same face when viewed directly. Such, Paul said, was the contrast between the imperfect time in which he then wrote and the perfect time which awaited him and the church when the partial reflection of the present would give way to the splendor of perfect vision. Then Paul would see God (cf. 15:28; 1 JOhn 3:2) as God now saw Paul. Then partial knowledge (cf. 1 Cor. 8:1-3) would be displaced by the perfect knowledge of God.




Well perfection,and sealed isnt mentioned until 2nd Corinthians.
And your point would be? When were the apostles sealed with the Holy Spirit? On the day of Pentecost:

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place, 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. (Acts 2)

Peter testified before the church at Jerusalem about Cornelius and his fellow believers salvation:

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord has said: John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God? (Acts 11)

Clearly showing they were sealed with the Spirit long before 2 Corinthians was written. So I ask you again what exactly is your point in stating what you did?

As for this:


Also Annanias and Saphira DIED they werent asleep like Thessalonians says or Lazarus I repeat
I think you better go back and study John 11 for when Jesus said Lazarus was asleep He was referring to the fact he had died:

11 After he has said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up." 12 The disciples replied, "Lord if he sleeps, he will get better, 13 Jesus has been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead

The scripture often refers to death as falling asleep.

[Mechaberean]

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God,(LOOK here) who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.(two programs)

[Mechaberean]

Again teh Holy Spirits presence does not say they arwe sealed ;left Samson but came back left almost left David but Daviod prayed and God gave him sure mercies,left King Saul. I wish you would read teh whole posts

[Mechaberean]

Again died and asleep in the Lord are two different things