Pauline Dispensationalism

[Mechaberean]

If your saying the quote is found in Galations well you would have saved yourself a ton of time/writing cause I corrected myself long ago and quoted where it was. But thats what happens when posts aren't read.

[BlessedinHim]

I would not spiritualize away the Millenian kingdom. It will be here and will be real and very concrete at that time.

Repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit, they both preach it. It is not different.


While I was reading, ran across that it seems like someone believes you have to be baptized to get the Holy Spirit, but that is not true. You only have to believe. Peter and Paul both Preached this.

[Mechaberean]

Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. We don't baptise with the Spirit God does.

[Mechaberean]

Mark1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins------------we do see remission of sins is tied with repentance and water baptism.

[God's Trombone]

I am bowing out of this thread at this time.

I don't know if I will return some time in the future.

I wanted to communicate the truth I have learned.

To continue now is more of a debate and I don't want to debate.:hat

[BlessedinHim]

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In practice, you can receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. What I was saying, is that receiving the Holy Spirit is not linked to the baptism, but to the believing.

[DJHere]

Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. We don't baptise with the Spirit God does.
Why does Mark 16 record they will be damned? Because of their unbelief not because they were not baptized with water: he that believeth not shall be damned.

What did Jesus teach was necessary for one to receive eternal life? Belief/faith!

14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

So that who? Everyone Who what? believes May have what? Eternal life.

What did Jesus say would leave them condemned? Unbelief!

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Clearly showing water baptism was not necessary for one to be saved but belief/faith in Jesus. Do all believers receive baptism of the Spirit? YES! (see John 7:38-39; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13-14).

[DJHere]

I truley believe you are contradicting yourself DJ here its for all believers but not for Epheisans; which is it
?
I was not contradicting myself for I asked:

Was Ephesus in Galatia? NO!

What did I note:

So even though the message contained in Galatians is for all believers it was not addressed to the Ephesians as you stated and claimed, but to the churches in Galatia, clearly showing you, not me, misquoted scripture.

I guess I should have said the scripture you claimed was addressed specifically to the Ephesians was not addressed to them directly as you claimed but to the Galatians. Is that what you stated and implied? NO! Clearly showing it was you, not me who was misquoting scripture.

[DJHere]

I am bowing out of this thread at this time.

I don't know if I will return some time in the future.

I wanted to communicate the truth I have learned.

To continue now is more of a debate and I don't want to debate.:hat
I am sorry you are leaving this thread but I feel I must answer what was directed to me.

I noted:

You have a problem with this view because 1 Thess. 4:13-17 clearly states and teaches all those who have died in Christ come back with Him at the rapture.

You replied:

No, the scripture do not say that Excuse me but they do:

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word,
we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Those who have fallen asleep in Christ refers to all those who have placed their belief in Jesus, Jew and Gentile alike.

You stated:
The scriptures tell us that the rapture is not revealed but in Paul's gospel, Jesus didn't tell anyone about a "rapture" when He was on earth, sent to Israel.

Do the gospels note the eleven did not have complete understanding before Jesus died? YES! (see Mark 9:9-10; Mark 9:30-32).

Does what is recorded in John 16 and Acts 1 and 10 show they still had much to learn after He ascended into heaven? Yes!

What did Jesus tell the eleven right before He died:

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. (John 16)

What does Eph. 3 record:

4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

So the rapture did not have to be revealed to them by Jesus for Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide and teach them about what was yet to come when He came.

I must stop and point out here that the commission given to the twelve in Matt. chapter 10 and the one given to the eleven in Matt. chapter 28 are different. Why are they different? Because in Matthew 10 they were commissioned to go only to the nation of Israel, but in Matt. 28 they were commanded to go to the world:


16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I must ask you what did Jesus promise all those who believed in Him? Eternal life. When will they receive the eternal life Jesus promised? Beginning with the rapture when they receive their glorified bodies (see 1 Cor. 15:35-47).

What is 1 Thess. 4:13-17 addressing? The resurrection of all those who have died in Christ. What does it specifically state:

God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Do the words: those who have fallen asleep in Him include all believers? YES! How do we know this? Because Eph. 1 teaches men get to be included in Christ one way by placing their belief/faith in Jesus:

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Does what is stated here apply only to certain believers? NO!

How do we know this? Because 1 Cor. 12:13 clearly states and teaches:

13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Who did Jesus teach would receive the Spirit? All those who placed their belief/faith in Him as the Scriptures say:

38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7)

Clearly showing that the message found in 1 Thess. is all for all believers Jew and Gentile alike.

You claimed:
YOu are implying Jesus revealed something in John's Gospel that God says is "hidden from the foundation of the world (Rom. 16:25).

Where did I do that?

What have I stated over and over in this thread? That all the apostles preached the same gospel message, a fact attested to by Paul when he wrote:

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve..........11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. (1 Cor. 15)

What did Jesus tell the eleven after He rose from the dead:

44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. (Luke 24)

What did Peter and the others preach? That Jesus died and rose again the third day for the forgiveness of sins; He is both Lord and Christ:

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.'

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. (Acts 2)



34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." (Acts 10)


Exactly what Paul preached:

Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ. (Acts 9)



26"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32"We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
" 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father. 34The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:
" 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.' 35So it is stated elsewhere:
" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'

36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.'" (Acts 13)

Paul clearly stated:11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. (1 Cor. 15)

[DJHere]

I asked:

Are you claiming the Jews who placed their belief/faith in Jesus before He died were not saved?


No, of course I am not. What does all the prophetic scripture say about them? They will go into the Kingdom. If dead when Christ returns (they died long ago) they will be resurrected "in that day" just as Christ said.
I was not referring to those who died before Jesus walked this earth I was referring to those who were living when He gave the message recorded in John 6. Are you claiming they were not saved? If not how can you claim 1 Thess. 4:13-17 is not addressing them? Does John 7:38-39 teach they would later receive the Spirit? YES! What does their receiving of the Spirit do? Places them in the body of Christ. How then can you claim they will not be coming back with Jesus when 1 Thess. 4 clearly states: and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

I asked:

how does one get to be included in Christ? One way by placing their belief/faith in Him (Eph.1:13-14). What happens when one places their belief/faith in Jesus? They receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now we know this gift was not given until the day of Pentecost but we also know that those who placed their belief/faith in Him were to receive this gift because Jesus stated:

38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7)

I specifically asked you:

Did you note the words: whom those who believed in him were later to receive?

Why did I do this? Because this passage of scripture clearly teaches those who placed their belief/faith in Jesus before His death did not receive indwelling of the Spirit until later. Why was this so? Because Jesus had not yet been glorified. What had Jesus stated? The Holy Spirit could not come until He left:

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (John 16)

Therefore we know, by what these scriptures state and teach, that those who placed their belief/faith in Him before He died and rose again and ascended into heaven could not receive the Spirit until He ascended, because the Spirit could not come until Jesus ascended into heaven.

I noted:

His word is equally clear baptism of the Spirit is what places one in the body of Christ:

13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. (1 Cor. 13)

I asked:

How can you believe what you stated is true in light of what is stated in John 7:38-39; 1 Cor. 12:13; and 1 Thess. 4:13-17?


You responded:
Again, you mix "oranges and apples" by quoting Paul in his letter written after the change of God dealing with Israel and turning to the Gentiles.
Who placed their belief in Jesus during His walk here on earth? Individual Jewish people.

Who are the words: whom those who believed in him were later to receive. referencing? Those who placed their belief in Jesus before He was glorified. So I am not comparing apples to oranges am I?

How can you state what you did then?

You stated:

Acts 2 is in the prophetic portion of Scripture, the coming of the Holy Spirit on Israeli believers there is not the "One Baptism" of Ephesians Paul's "new creature" in the Gospel to the Gentiles is baptized by the Spirit into the Body and sealed. In the case of the Kingdom saints, they are not.
How can you possibly say this when John 7 clearly records:

38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Verse 39 specifically states and teaches those who believed in Him before He was glorified received the Spirit later. Why? Because Jesus had to leave before the Spirit could come:

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (John 16)

The Scriptures clearly teach the Holy Spirit was given to all believers, including those who had placed their belief in Jesus before He died and rose again. Why do you keep ignoring what John 7:39 specifically states?


What did I say about John 6/? Jesus said they (His audience in Israel) would be resurrected at the "last day", but Paul is speaking of our rapture not Jesus audience in John 6. For you to claim such implies Jesus was disclosing what scripture says remained "hidden in God."
Does a child have to know everything for something to be true? NO!

What did Jesus tell the eleven? He had much more to say to them but right then they could not bear it, but when the Holy Spirit came He would guide them into all truth and reveal to them what was to come. (John 16:12-14)

What did Jesus tell the people who placed their belief in Him before He died? They would receive eternal life and be raised from the dead.

What else did He promise? They would be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? What does indwelling of the Spirit do? Places them in the body of Chrsit. What does scripture record about those placed in the body of Christ who have died? They will be coming back with Jesus. (1 Thess. 4:13-17).

1 Thess. 4 very clearly states:

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

So according to what is written in 1 Thess. 4:13-17; Eph. 1:13-14; 1 Cor. 12:13; and 1 Cor. 15:35-57 those who received the Spirit and died in Christ will be with Jesus when He comes. How then can you claim:


No one comes "with Christ" in the air when He catches away both the dead and living saints Does your statement agree with this:

and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

NO!