Pauline Dispensationalism

[graceforme]

Does your statement agree with what is recorded in this scripture:

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15)

I guess my answer to that would be that before Acts 10 the Gentiles had not been given the message of the gospel. (Acts 10:6, 22, 32-33, 11:13-14.

Nor did Peter or any of the disciples understand the gospel according to grace previous to Paul being given the message of grace by divine revelation from Christ. The twelve had gone about preaching the gospel of the kingdome, as they had no understanding of, nor did they believe that Christ would be crucified, die, and then be resurrected on the third day. Peter even attempted to prevent the crucifixion (Matt. 16:21-23).

And prior to the actual event taking place, the disciples still lacked understanding. (Luke 18:31-34)

Even immediately after the resurrection had taken place, there was neither understanding or rejoicing. (John 20:9).

Paul reveal that the mystery was hidden from the princes of this world so that the Lord could confound his enemies. (1 Cor. 2:7-8).

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 clearly shows that after preaching the gospel of the kingdom for more than three years, the people of the four gospels did not know what Paul would learn from the resurrected Christ.

The fact that Christ "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:25) was mystery information delivered to Paul, information the disciples never comprehended.

Today, in this present dispensation of grace, the kingdom is no longer being offered to Israel, as they rejected their kingdom and crucified their King. God's prophesied kingdome temporarily has been set aside, and it is no longer at hand. The gospel of the kingdom that the disciples were preaching does not apply to this present dispensation, because there is no salvation today apart from the gospel of the grace of God. The gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace are different and no one had knowledge of the gospel of the grace of God BEFORE Paul was given the information he received from Christ through divine revelation.

Peter clearly understood the gospel of grace, but, according to Galatians 2, he was still ministering the the Jewish nation. That was Peter's ministry. The kingdom gospel had been set aside, but he was still a minister to the Jews.

God Bless.

[DJHere]

I guess my answer to that would be that before Acts 10 the Gentiles had not been given the message of the gospel. (Acts 10:6, 22, 32-33, 11:13-14.

Nor did Peter or any of the disciples understand the gospel according to grace previous to Paul being given the message of grace by divine revelation from Christ.
How can you state that when Acts 5 records:

17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

How can you state what you did when Acts 10:34-11:18 records and states what it does?

Paul clearly stated:

4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

Who revealed it to the apostles? The Holy Spirit!

Does your statement agree with what is written in the scriptures noted above? NO!


The twelve had gone about preaching the gospel of the kingdome, as they had no understanding of, nor did they believe that Christ would be crucified, die, and then be resurrected on the third day. Peter even attempted to prevent the crucifixion (Matt. 16:21-23).
This is no surprise for Mark 9 records:

30They left that place and passed through Galilee. Jesus did not want anyone to know where they were, 31because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." 32But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.

and John 20 records:

3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

When did they get understanding? After Jesus rose from the dead:

44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24)

Did they have complete understanding before the Holy Spirit came? NO! Why not? John 16 answers that:

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

What was one of the things the Holy Spirit made known to them? That the gentiles would be saved and share in the promise with Israel:

34Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right...........................1The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."
4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'

8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'

9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11"Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" 18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts chapters 10 and 11)



4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 3)


Paul reveal that the mystery was hidden from the princes of this world so that the Lord could confound his enemies. (1 Cor. 2:7-8).
Who is 1 Cor. 2:7-8 referencing? Unbelievers not the apostles so you point in noting this scripture would be??????????????


1 Corinthians 15:1-4 clearly shows that after preaching the gospel of the kingdom for more than three years, the people of the four gospels did not know what Paul would learn from the resurrected Christ.
Who is 1 Cor. written to? Gentiles not Jews. What does it state:

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Compare that with what Jesus told the eleven after He rose from the dead and you will see they teach the same exact message:

44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things

What does 1 Cor. 15 teach:

6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Paul wrote:

11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. (1 Cor. 15)


The fact that Christ "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:25) was mystery information delivered to Paul, information the disciples never comprehended.

Not true for what did Peter preach:

43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." (Acts 10)

What did John preach:

12I write to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. (1 John 2)

Why did John write the gospel of John?

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20)

What did Peter write:

21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter 2)

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. (1 Peter 3)


Today, in this present dispensation of grace, the kingdom is no longer being offered to Israel, as they rejected their kingdom and crucified their King.

What did Jesus teach allowed one to one enter the kingdom of God? Faith in God. Is that still true today? YES!


The gospel of the kingdom that the disciples were preaching does not apply to this present dispensation, because there is no salvation today apart from the gospel of the grace of God. The gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace are different
And you see this stated and taught exactly where in scripture?


no one had knowledge of the gospel of the grace of God BEFORE Paul was given the information he received from Christ through divine revelation.
Is that what Acts 5 teaches when it records:

17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

Did the angel get it wrong?



Is that what God's word states and teaches in Acts 10:34-11:18? NO! What does Acts 11 record:

1The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."
4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'

8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'

9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11"Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

It that what Acts 15 teaches when it records and states:

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

How did Jesus teach one enters the kingdom of God? Through faith in Him.

How did Paul teach one enters the kingdom of God? Through faith in Jesus:

21They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, 22strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

What good news did the preach? That Jesus died and rose again according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15)

So where exactly do you see God's word stating or teaching they taught a different message?



Peter clearly understood the gospel of grace, but, according to Galatians 2, he was still ministering the the Jewish nation. That was Peter's ministry. The kingdom gospel had been set aside, but he was still a minister to the Jews.
And your point would be??????????

[graceforme]

This is why I didn't really want to get involved in this discussion. We can go back and forth, attempting to prove one another wrong in some way, as the hundreds of posts prove, and yet nothing constructive is coming from it. I am leaving this thread. Many blessings to all who have posted here.

[Mechaberean]

sorry the Genesis scripture goes in great detail which circumsicion it is and it tells how to do foreskin and all also its an everlasting covenant.Genesis17:Genesis17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin;(SEE PHYSICAL) and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.(EVERLASTING)--------This physical one is forever for them seen here.

[HeIsEnough]

This is why I didn't really want to get involved in this discussion. We can go back and forth, attempting to prove one another wrong in some way, as the hundreds of posts prove, and yet nothing constructive is coming from it. I am leaving this thread. Many blessings to all who have posted here.

You'd be surprised what can come from threads such as this....

[LaMontre]

It's been a while since I have been back here to post....and things haven't changed much I see....

If the church at Rome consisted of both Jew and Gentile and was started by those Romans there at the day of Pentecost it was founded on the same gospel given to Peter and the other apostles and not Paul, as Paul had not yet received his calling. Were these believers both Jew and Gentile not the body of Christ? Are there two churches?


We don't know for sure but we can posit that, yes, Paul wrote to Jews and Greeks or Gents associated with Israel- believers like those saved in Jerusalem. That they were not yet members of the Body of Christ is evident by the fact of Paul writing them to share "the Gospel of Christ" Rom. 1:16 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.And Rom. 1:11By "established" Paul means to become part of the Body of Christ by his Gospel, the Word of Truth which was still hidden when these believers became part of the little flock by believing Peter's message. As such they were not established in eternal life. By not hearing the Gospel Paul received from Christ, they would have to "endure until the end" in order to be saved." Paul's Gospel (Rom. 3-8) gives an immediate gift of eternal life.



Hmmm, so Jesus was wrong here:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Clearly those at Pentecost were called Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;he church (Act 2:47) do you believe another church arose after this one? Or that scripture is wrong and these were not really the church?

The word "church" as you know means "assembly" or called out ones. This applies to many different things in scripture. The Jewish believers in Jerusalem were a "church" but not the church the Body of Christ.

What about the gentiles saved under Peters preaching? Did they also not really have eternal life, even though the Holy Spirit fell upon them? :rolleyes

Do we remit the great commission of (Act 1:8) to the Jews only?

Peter , James and John in Acts 15 bound themselves to go only to the "circumcision" therein they eliminated the commission they would have done if Israel had not been set aside by God.

So they were disobedient to the great commission and didn't preach the gospel to the world, is that what your saying?

Just a question; How do you think you got saved?

Answer; You got saved because of their ministry.

I have an (oddly) related question: Will Jewish converts like Peter, Paul, and all the others down through the centuries, recieve the promises of their fathers, or no?

[quote]Clearly Peter didn't as he addressed those in (Act 2:29) as both "men and brethren".

Peter continued in early Acts preaching t Israel and offering the kingdom until God began showing him the kingdom could not be offered any longer and Peter turned to "feeding the flock." And awaiting Christ's return.

Do you have a scripture to support your contention that the offer of the kingdom "ended"?

And what of Peter is he accursed for not teaching the gospel of Paul (Gal 1:8)? I say no as even Paul believed in one Gospel (Eph 4:5)

No Peter is not accursed for he was sent to the circumcision with his own good news, and Paul was sent to the uncircumcision with his.

Thats a dance, not an answer. :)

Peter's good news is never addressed to these Ephesians whom had no connection to Israel. The "one baptism" here is the Spirit's baptizing us into the Body of Christ.Peter's baptism was the Jewish water baptism.

Paul had preached his good news (Gospel) to these Galatians, and some, not Peter, had come preaching another Gospel (the one Peter preached in Jerusalem).Such would be "accursed" for trying to bring these converts of Paul's Gospel back under the law.

So you DO believe that the gospel Peter preached made him "accursed" because it was (supposedly) different from Pauls.

Peter, James and John's disciples were under the law. The law is always and will always be associated with Israel. Jews today get saved just as Gentiles do, by the Gospel of Grace (That Paul preached.)


So they weren't under grace until they heard Pauls gospel? Sad for them that died before they had a chance to hear it I guess eh?

You have to see how ridiculous all this is?

[LaMontre]

You evidently do not get it for Paul's letter to the Romans is clear in teaching that God stopped dealing with Israel as "His people" and scattered them into the Gentile world(Hosea 1:9, Rom.11:25)(Rom. 11:15)

Interesting, so God isn't dealing with Israel anymore?

Funny, I would assume you knew about what happened in 1947?

Have you heard, Israel is back in the land now (Just FYI).

Oh, and Paul also believed that God was still "dealing" with Israel even then.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So he believed that God was indeed still dealing with "some" of them by provoking them to jealousy. And you know that is in fulsillment of prophecy?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

So God is still dealing with Israel, he is saving them and bringing them into his church. Just as he did Paul and all the rest.

There is no Gospel today other than that Paul preached. Thus, God's grace and the mystery revealed to Paul (Gospel of Christ) Rom. 1:16 is now the Gospel by which all men Jew and Gentile can be saved.

How can people whom God has stopped dealing with be saved??

[Topped 3]

DJhere,Mecha,BIH, This is a stalemate , HIE ,GFM , this is a long, interesting bible study worthy of hours of re-study and contemplation, however IMO as long as their are numerous bible versions , and everyone has their own favorite , it seems,we are going to be on opposing viewpoints perpetually.I suggest we study this debate page by page and explore every passage of scripture verse by verse ,version by version. That way we can empathize with each others views so we won't need to continuously squabble over the same chew toy.

[BlessedinHim]

Hi LaMontre, glad to see you back.

I am just about to the point of just shaking my head........

Topped3, I dont see how all this is about bible versions. I use the KJV because it is easier for me, but I also check out other versions, and there really isnt a difference in meaning. There may be some differences in words used through translation, but you can always go back and check out the Strongs.

biblegateway (http://www.biblegateway.com/)
http://blueletterbible.org/
Strongs site (http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html)

I use these resources a lot to help me study. I dont use too much commentary, some commentary gets to be extra biblical adding things to it that just arent there. Sometimes I do a word search and read all the verses that contains the word to get the full meaning of what is being talked about. Very interesting results at times. When the Holy Spirit opens the word, there is nothing like it.

[LaMontre]

Hi LaMontre, glad to see you back.

Thanks....Im praying for you and yours.....:)