Pauline Dispensationalism

[LaMontre]

On the Contrary,Paul is careful in Gal. and Eph.to ,in most cases,always use "God" or "Christ" when talking about "Faith of" or "through faith ",cuz he is writing to Gentiles.

So when talking to Israelis he would have said......what??

He makes it clear that we are to "Preach the Cross" and "Christ crucified".That is basically what salvation is for us Gentiles"now"in this "Dispensation of the Grace of God";it is the salvation by Grace through faith of Christ,not "Israel's" faith in,(different program),

Oh, Israel has a different means of salvation then?? Shwew, glad to hear that. I guess Paul was all bent out of shape over nothing here:

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

No need for him to worry about saving any of them, right?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Thats why we're "Joint heirs",not "Friends" like He calls the Disciples.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

I don't see any ethnic requirement here.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Jesus is heir to what, in your opinion??

The Cross and Mercy and Grace is all we "Gentiles" are about.

And being Joint heirs with Jesus.

Israel still has their own "yet to be fulfilled program" and true "Gentile church members" support Israel 100%,

What is it to "support Israel 100%" exactly, in your opinion?

I mean, I really want to be a true "Gentile Church member". :tsk

and do NOT attempt to usurp or impose ourselves as part of that plan.

How in the world would anyone "usurp" or "impose themselves" upon the plan of God?

All of the N.T. is for our learning and instruction for righteous living,but NOT to brazenly try to claim for our own.That is Replacement Theology,and I don't want to be accursed for mis-appropriating God's word and leading people astray. :candle

Interesting. Do you believe that Peter was mis-appropriating Gods word when he wrote this to the church:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Or James:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Or Paul:
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Or whoever wrote this (I believe its Paul myself):
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hmmmm.:candle

[LaMontre]

There is no righteousness from the cross because the work hadn't been done yet.

Precisely:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Thats why David says in the Old Testament judge me According to my righteousness.

That is hardly what is meant at all:
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Also it goes from the just shall live by HIS(emphasis mine) faith,to the just shall live by faith no HIS(emphasis mine). So its their faith,their righteousness in the Old testament. Its not the same gospel from several different angles its what God preached before the cross;which is the gospel.

This is what is so terribly wrong with traditional dispensational doctrine. One can end up with multiple gospels, multiple New Testaments, and multiple means of salvation. :tsk

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.


Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

No one was ever saved by their own righteousness, nor by keeping the law, because the law was never given for that purpose:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I hope this helps. :wave

[Mechaberean]

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets---------look at that BUT NOW it means not before.

[Mechaberean]

they were saved from Hell to Abraham's bosom there was no other way but the cross, thats why when Jesus was in the garden He prayed Father take this cup from me if there is another way. But there was none;Jesus was the first man to Heaven besides the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah no teh cross doen't pull backward before it happens.So yep David's righteopusness saved him from hell awaiting the promise that should come.

[Mechaberean]

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
-----------You see the THEY earlier on so David wasn't talking of himself he was prophesying of the future of the cross.

[Mechaberean]

Precisely:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.-----------why does He have to worry about sins of the past becasue the cross couldn't pull back when they were sins of teh present only could remit when the new testament of teh cross had been implemented, no New Testament without the death of teh testator.

[LaMontre]

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets---------look at that BUT NOW it means not before.

Thats out of context. Please read the context surrounding the verse, and you will come away with a very different take.

they were saved from Hell to Abraham's bosom there was no other way but the cross, thats why when Jesus was in the garden He prayed Father take this cup from me if there is another way. But there was none;Jesus was the first man to Heaven besides the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah no teh cross doen't pull backward before it happens.So yep David's righteopusness saved him from hell awaiting the promise that should come.

Did you just decide that the verses I quoted weren't relevent?? :tsk

Let me reiterate for emphasis:
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
-----------You see the THEY earlier on so David wasn't talking of himself he was prophesying of the future of the cross.

Precisely. Your making my point for me here. He was NOT righteous apart from grace. NO ONE ever was, nor could they ever be.

why does He have to worry about sins of the past becasue the cross couldn't pull back when they were sins of teh present only could remit when the new testament of teh cross had been implemented, no New Testament without the death of teh testator.

Huh? Your putting words in my mouth. I never said the cross was "pulled back" anywhere. I said the gospel message always pointed to it. How else would "all families of the earth be blessed"?? The law pointed to it, through the impossibility of keeping it. In that way it was a "schoolmaster". Elect men such as Abraham and David, and Moses and all the rest understood this.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Paul obviously considered these prophecies to represent the gospel message in the Old Testament. Otherwise his use of these verses here should be considered (as someone else here has put it) a "misappropriation" of them.

[Topped 3]

Again, I didn't say it, Paul did:
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So, no worries. :wave You are missing an important point on Abraham.You omit the fact that "right division" theologians point out.(1. Gen.22:12"..Lay not tyhine hand upon the lad,neither do thou any thing unto him(spared Isaac,a picture of grace and mercy);for now I (God)know that thou fearest God(Faith,respect,reverance),seeing thou hast not withheld thy son..."(works,proof of faith and obedience)This is a type and shadow of the cross,but they didn't know then,we know now...V.17.."That in Blessing I will bless Thee(a type of Gentiles blessing the Jews,God blesses them in return),and in myltiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars OF the Heaven(that's us gentiles forshadowed,Kingdom of God ,among the stars),and as the sand upon the seashore(that's Jewish nation,Kingdom of Heaven , eartly Kingdom,Christ on Davids throne,Sand of the sea depicting EARTHLy Kingdom.Stars are signifying a far of Kingdom(God's Kingdom).."and thy seed shall possess the Gates of thine enemies (Jews inherit the earth at 2nd advent).."and in thy seed shall all the nations(races) of the earth be blessed(nations will be saved and blessed Through Israel during 1000 yr Millenium).."because thou hast obeyed my voice..(Abrahams faith procured blessings for ALL peoples by his Faith, but Christ's sacrifice alone WITHOUT works goes to those in this Dispensation,but no other..:hehee

[LaMontre]

You are missing an important point on Abraham.You omit the fact that "right division" theologians point out.(1. Gen.22:12"..Lay not tyhine hand upon the lad,neither do thou any thing unto him(spared Isaac,a picture of grace and mercy);for now I (God)know that thou fearest God(Faith,respect,reverance),seeing thou hast not withheld thy son..."(works,proof of faith and obedience)

I am not forgetting it, it is simply irrelevent to the point.

Faith without works is dead my friend, but I know you dont believe that applies to you. :ohno
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is a type and shadow of the cross,but they didn't know then,we know now...V.17.."That in Blessing I will bless Thee(a type of Gentiles blessing the Jews,God blesses them in return),and in myltiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars OF the Heaven(that's us gentiles forshadowed,Kingdom of God ,among the stars),and as the sand upon the seashore(that's Jewish nation,Kingdom of Heaven , eartly Kingdom,Christ on Davids throne,Sand of the sea depicting EARTHLy Kingdom.Stars are signifying a far of Kingdom(God's Kingdom).."

I would accept that interpretation, however:
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I find it a little like separating the kingdom of God from the kingdom of heaven. Although it doesn't present the problems that particular interpretation presents.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Just two statements illustrating the same point (IMO).

and thy seed shall possess the Gates of thine enemies (Jews inherit the earth at 2nd advent)..

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Remember, the seed (singular) is Christ.

"and in thy seed shall all the nations(races) of the earth be blessed(nations will be saved and blessed Through Israel during 1000 yr Millenium).."because thou hast obeyed my voice..(Abrahams faith procured blessings for ALL peoples by his Faith, but Christ's sacrifice alone WITHOUT works goes to those in this Dispensation,but no other..:hehee

So then according to your gospel, OT saints were not saved by Jesus Christ? Perhaps your gospel claims they had another means of salvation besides by grace through faith?

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[Topped 3]

I am not forgetting it, it is simply irrelevent to the point.

Faith without works is dead my friend, but I know you dont believe that applies to you. :ohno
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



I would accept that interpretation, however:
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I find it a little like separating the kingdom of God from the kingdom of heaven. Although it doesn't present the problems that particular interpretation presents.

Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

Just two statements illustrating the same point (IMO).



Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Remember, the seed (singular) is Christ.



So then according to your gospel, OT saints were not saved by Jesus Christ? Perhaps your gospel claims they had another means of salvation besides by grace through faith?

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. You are saying WE are out of context ?You are referencing passages from james and Hebrews that are Written to Proselyte s and Jews,in DIRECT contradiction to Pau'l Gospel;it says "to the Hebrews",and paul didn't write hebrews,check the Writers style,not at all like Paul's;you have been rapid firing verses at us completely out of context and off topic ,like I said before,Dispensationalism,what this thread is about,is only detectable in the subtle wording of the KJ AV,and you have to pay CLOSE attention to catch it.Once you see it,it's like an entirely different Bible,and opens up like never before,And fits together without conflicting messages.To not rightly divide is to preach confusion,duplicity and CONTRADICTION
! :doh