Pauline Dispensationalism

[Topped 3]

I am not "closed to the scripture", just to your skewed interpretation of it. Once again I am confronted with the rank arrogance that the holders of this doctrine have. Believe me, your not the first. :tsk



I am happy to reveal the frustration and confusion that your doctrine brings to the scripture.



Give that man a cupie doll!! :heh

Grace and peace. :wave Prizes ? wow ! I suppose yours is the satisfaction of someone of your superior Bible Knowledge putting us Lunkheads in our place.

[LaMontre]

I thought this needed to be posted as a summation of a few of the points I have alluded to in this thread. I don't want my words to be misconstrued because I am unable to communicate them as well as I'd like on a piece-meal basis.

I do not believe that Israel has been "cast aside" nor do I believe that the New Covenant offer to Israel has been withdrawn. In fact, the New Covenant was established with a believing remnant of Israel (Luke 22:20), which at the first were called his disciples, and then at Acts 2, were called The ekklesia.

Paul agreed with this view (Rom 11:1, 2, & 5). Certainly we cannot gleen from Pauls words that Israels program has been suspended (the parentheses), nor obviously, that Israel has been "replaced". Quite the contrary to both conclusions, there is only a partial blindness that has happened to Israel (Rom 11:25), which indicates quite clearly that there is a "remnant" that is not blinded. As Paul puts it, they are the "remnant according to the the election of grace". Not only this but the tense and context of Rom 11:5 indicates that this "election of grace" was also true for each generations "remnant" throughout Israels past, and it is obviously still true today.

The Olive tree parable also confirms this. Those in Israel who did not accept their Messiah, were called "natural branches" that have been "broken off" from the "good tree". The fact that some natural branches were NOT broken off (gentiles are grafted in among them, Rom 11:17), indicates a continuity of the believing remnant both before and after Christ's death and resurrection.

All of this indicates that God is and has been continually; progressively fulfilling his covenants and promises with Israel, but only with a believing remnant. And it indicates too, that this is no change at all. That rather this is just as it has always been for Israel.

With which Paul also agreed again. (Acts 26:6-7)

The only difference now is "the mystery"; that the Gentiles are co-heirs, and fellow citizens with the saints. (Rom 8:17, Eph 2:19, Gal 3:26).

I believe this solves the supposed OT-NT discontinuity problem. Which is what the dispensational doctrine was intially proposed to solve, but has been run so far afowl of that purpose, it has lost it's effectiveness in that regard.

So that now (from this perspective), there is good reason for Israel to be jealous of gentile salvation, and no biblical logic to saying God is no longer dealing with Israel in this dispensation (Rom 10:19, Rom 11:11). Now there is nothing strange or controversial about Old Testament references applied to the Church in the New Testament (i.e. Acts 2:15-21, Acts 10:43, Acts 15:14-18, Rom. 1:1,2, Rom. 4:13-17,23,24, Rom. 9:32,33, Rom. 15:4,8-10, 2 Cor. 6:16-7:1). No more controversy about the New Covenant being applied to the Church (i.e. 1 Cor 11:25-26 & Heb 8:6-13). And most importantly, no more need to try and figure out why God seems to have multiple methods of salvation (grace through faith has always been Gods method for all of time), and no more reason to rebuild the wall of partition by cutting the New Testament up into ethnically assigned bits and pieces. (Thank you Lord! :thumb)

[Mechaberean]

I thought this needed to be posted as a summation of a few of the points I have alluded to in this thread. I don't want my words to be misconstrued because I am unable to communicate them as well as I'd like on a piece-meal basis.

I do not believe that Israel has been "cast aside" nor do I believe that the New Covenant offer to Israel has been withdrawn. In fact, the New Covenant was established with a believing remnant of Israe------No Actually Acts 1-7 is addressed to Isarel as a nation just have to read it.--------l (Luke 22:20), which at the first were called his disciples, and then at Acts 2, were called The ekklesia.

Paul agreed with this view (Rom 11:1, 2, & 5). Certainly we cannot gleen from Pauls words that Israels program has been suspended (the parentheses), nor obviously, that Israel has been "replaced". Quite the contrary to both conclusions, there is only a partial blindness that has happened to Israel (Rom 11:25), which indicates quite clearly that there is a "remnant" that is not blinded. As Paul puts it, they are the "remnant according to the the election of grace". Not only this but the tense and context of Rom 11:5 indicates that this "election of grace" was also true for each generations "remnant" throughout Israels past, and it is obviously still true today.

The Olive tree parable also confirms this. Those in Israel who did not accept their Messiah, were called "natural branches" that have been "broken off" from the "good tree". The fact that some natural branches were NOT broken off (gentiles are grafted in among them, Rom 11:17), indicates a continuity of the believing remnant both before and after Christ's death and resurrection.-----sorry we are not among them, common sense should tell you we do not meet in a synagogue and have all things common Acts1-7,nor can we heal all sick and raise the dead; it is not a continuation of theirs--------------

All of this indicates that God is and has been continually; progressively fulfilling his covenants and promises with Israel, but only with a believing remnant. And it indicates too, that this is no change at all. That rather this is just as it has always been for Israel. --------Acts 1-7 is addressed to all Israel not just a remnant, when all Israel failed to come in as Romans says THEY WILL, then they idid say we turn to the Gentiles.------------

With which Paul also agreed again. (Acts 26:6-7)-----this is talking of his belief in a ressurection only here, no continuance of anything only a belief that there is a ressurection------------

The only difference now is "the mystery"; that the Gentiles are co-heirs, and fellow citizens with the saints. (Rom 8:17, Eph 2:19, Gal 3:26).

I believe this solves the supposed OT-NT discontinuity problem. Which is what the dispensational doctrine was intially proposed to solve, but has been run so far afowl of that purpose, it has lost it's effectiveness in that regard.
-----------James says other wise was not Abraham our father justified WHEN he offered Isaac on the altar(YES)--------------
So that now (from this perspective), there is good reason for Israel to be jealous of gentile salvation, and no biblical logic to saying God is no longer dealing with Israel in this dispensation (Rom 10:19, Rom 11:11). Now there is nothing strange or controversial about Old Testament references applied to the Church in the New Testament (i.e. Acts 2:15-21, Acts 10:43, Acts 15:14-18, Rom. 1:1,2, Rom. 4:13-17,23,24, Rom. 9:32,33, Rom. 15:4,8-10, 2 Cor. 6:16-7:1). No more controversy about the New Covenant being applied to the Church (i.e. 1 Cor 11:25-26 & Heb 8:6-13). And most importantly, no more need to try and figure out why God seems to have multiple methods of salvation (grace through faith has always been Gods method for all of time),----------wrong faith without works is nothing no cross work faith is nothing, but they could have faith as I quoted many times in what God told them; Abarahm believed God he would have a child in his old age etc..------------ and no more reason to rebuild the wall of partition by cutting the New Testament up into ethnically assigned bits and pieces. (Thank you Lord! :thumb)---------circumscion is an ordinance forever also as I pointed out as others in the Jewish church----------

[Mechaberean]

Whats interesting about Acts1-7 is it is a remnant addressing a nation;Acts2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
=remnant addressing a nation. Acts3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?=a remnant addressing a nation.Acts4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,=a remnant addressing a nation.Acts5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
=a remnant addressing a nation.

[Mechaberean]

Romans11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness. ( there is a gradual diminishing). Romans2:
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision. ( a righteousness of the law). Romans10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Could they say this before it happened;NO).

[Mechaberean]

Like I have said they believed what God told them, were held in Abraham's bosom until the cross because it doesnt pull backward then they could see Jesus is real accept Him for who He is and then and not before go to Heaven. So no one went to Heaven except Enoch and Elijah there was no other way Jesus bore the cup so we could go but nobody went til then.

[Topped 3]

Whats interesting about Acts1-7 is it is a remnant addressing a nation;Acts2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
=remnant addressing a nation. Acts3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?=a remnant addressing a nation.Acts4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,=a remnant addressing a nation.Acts5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
=a remnant addressing a nation. Good point , Mecha-B,and some other points that don't jibe with La-Montre's arguement. If God is still dealing actively with Israel in this Dispensation,why doesn't Paul admonish all believers to practice the beattitudes like they did in Acts 2:44 ; 4:32 ? And where are the Angels actively serving the remnant ? (Acts 5:19) And why doesn't God verbally communicate with the Jewish remnant if nothing in the way God progressively deals with the Remnant has changed ?(Acts 10:13;11:7) And finally,in Gal.1:8 Paul says.."But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven,preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed . Remember Mohammad's 600 winged angel that supposedly gave him the koran and spawned this whole islamic false religion ? And also why would Paul warn against heeding an angels council if all is the same progressively with Israel ? No, IMO, by diminishing the signs, healings ,wonders ,assistance of angels,tongues,prophesying,and direct communication with man,God has made it MORE than obvious that we are in a Grace period,until God picks up with Israel where He left off.

[Mechaberean]

Acts3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:---------And why did He send the Holy Ghost when it says word for word He would send Jesus? I think God knows the difference.

[GTReturns]

It has been common here for those whom I will call "defenders of church traditions" to post gobs of verses implying they contradict the truths we have exposed; when the verses do nothing of the sort.I think this is sad, since the bible as a whole clearly supports our views when carefully examined. To dispel all the errors of centuries of unbiblical tradition is a formidable task to take on. I am not prepared to do so
For the benefit of those I know are interested in getting to the truth of the Word I will make a few comments..
That's your opinion, thus far unsupported by scripture. No matter what ethnicity they were written to, they were written to the church. To dispute that fact would be futile indeed.



It is written to the church nevertheless.

There was a "church" in the wilderness, a "church" in early Acts and a "church the body of Christ" but they are not the same "church" are they? By rightly dividing the word of truth we know that God has dealt with each separately.



Another opinion.



I am sure you'd like to believe that, but each scripture has been right on topic, and as yet unanswered by you.



That statement sounds a little cultic:

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)



Rightly dividing is a subjective matter, defined in various ways by various commentators.

We define it as Paul used it in II Tim. 2:15.
We learn to separate "the Gospel of your {our} salvation (Eph. 1:13) from all the other "good news to others" e.g., Peter's offering Israel the kingdom even after Christ's death and resurrection in Acts 2-4.

[GTReturns]

That the "mystery" had been hidden in God from the foundation of the world. You quote the very scriptures yourself below. There is a world of difference between "hidden in God" and hidden in the scriptures.
What was "hidden in the scriptures " from many or most was that their redeemer would be killed, rise from the dead for their sins. It was NOT in the scriptures (therefore a mystery, that ALL MEN, even Gentile dogs would be reconciled by that death and resurrection. This was not in the scriptures until revealed to Paul as the verses below testify..

[QUOTE=LaMontre;204910]Very good. The mystery was simply hidden, or encoded in the scriptures. But it was "in the scriptures".Not!
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: .



It was hidden from Israel in the scriptures, "in plain sight," just as Jesus true identity was hidden from many.

Paul even said quite plainly, that the gospel he preached was "according to the scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3-4).

The scriptures Paul cites were to Israel. He is revealing the mystery that Gentiles, apart from Israel are saved by this Gospel.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

As I showed above, there is more to Paul's Gospel than those two verses contain. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles, writing to Gentiles.