Pauline Dispensationalism

[GTReturns]

BIH,

I realize that you said way back at the outset that you were "new" to this subject. Your post discloses that you have missed completely the point and somehow have failed to "hear" what has been said over and over here.
We have always said that the scriptures of Paul say that Jews and Gentiles now are saved by the Gospel preached by Paul; the only Gospel of salvation God recognizes today.

[/COLOR]I have learned a lot from this thread. Although, I do not go along with all the stuff I posted for discussion. Like the two gospel business. I believe there is only one gospel and two different audiences with two different points of view. I believe a Jew can become saved today just like us "gentiles" and miss out on the tribulation period, or, they can remain stiff necked and have to go through the great tribulation. And of course that is just what many will do. They will be the remnant of Israel. For a little while that remnant will be in the MK, but in the end, we all end up in the same place. You know, I am not sure if that will be heaven or not. Doesnt matter as long as we are with Jesus.

[BlessedinHim]

I have not seen scripture that supports 2 different gospels. It is all about grace, faith, and belief.

Jesus said: "I am the truth, the way and the life, and no one goes to the Father except through me."

In this He didnt say to you Jews I say, or to you Gentiles I say....

It is a flat out statement made without any exceptions. As I said before, if there were 2 different messages, there would have been much confusion, Peter and Paul both preached to Jews and Gentiles, and they both were baptised and practiced baptism.

So, where is this other gospel?
What is different?

Scriptures in context please that show this "other gospel"

[LaMontre]

---------circumscion is an ordinance forever also as I pointed out as others in the Jewish church----------

As Paul pointed out long before that:
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

And this seals the fate of all, because:
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[LaMontre]

Whats interesting about Acts1-7 is it is a remnant addressing a nation;

So now you mention the remnant....interesting.

Riddle me this: In your opinion, where is this "remnant" that Paul spoke of (in this dispensation)?

Acts2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
=remnant addressing a nation.

Actually, that would be remnant addressing EVERY nation. If were gonna claim a "literal" approach, lets keep it literal shall we?

Acts3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?=a remnant addressing a nation. Acts4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,=a remnant addressing a nation.Acts5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
=a remnant addressing a nation.

Since your not willing to make your points clearly; for the sake of all who read this let me clarify:
Your saying then, that because Peter only addressed "the men of Israel" that this proves another gospel?

What you seem to fail to see, is that this "remnant" is the ekklesia.

The audience does not change the message, and the message is the same. I note that you failed to address ther actual message here.

Lets break it down, shall we? For the sake of brevity, I will simply "hit the high points" (so the speak), comparing his words to Pauls on the same topics.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

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Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

As you can see, the gospel that Peter preached was virtually identical to Pauls gospel. Baptism, even Peter stated, was but a confession:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

[LaMontre]

Romans11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness. ( there is a gradual diminishing).

Romans2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision. ( a righteousness of the law).

As I said above, no one can hope for that, this is a general statement. If the the uncircumcision did indeed keep the law, the he would need not be circumcized. However we cannot take this statement out of the context of the rest of the bible.

Romans10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Could they say this before it happened;NO).

Not sure how this has any bearing, but I agree with you.

[LaMontre]

Good point , Mecha-B,and some other points that don't jibe with La-Montre's arguement. If God is still dealing actively with Israel in this Dispensation,why doesn't Paul admonish all believers to practice the beattitudes like they did in Acts 2:44 ; 4:32 ?

I thought you knew your bible better than that?
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

And where are the Angels actively serving the remnant ? (Acts 5:19)

What a subjective point that is. Although I know for a fact that anyone in the church (which is where the remnant is in this dispensation) has angels watching over them, and actively working in their lives.

And why doesn't God verbally communicate with the Jewish remnant if nothing in the way God progressively deals with the Remnant has changed ?(Acts 10:13;11:7)

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

And finally,in Gal.1:8 Paul says.."But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven,preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed . Remember Mohammad's 600 winged angel that supposedly gave him the koran and spawned this whole islamic false religion ?

And you actually believe that was an angel of God, or??? :scratch

And also why would Paul warn against heeding an angels council if all is the same progressively with Israel ?

Thats not what he said friend. He said his doctrine was to be the guide for them IF an angel spoke to them. Had Mohammad believed this, we might not even HAVE Islam today.

No, IMO, by diminishing the signs, healings ,wonders ,assistance of angels,tongues,prophesying,and direct communication with man,God has made it MORE than obvious that we are in a Grace period,until God picks up with Israel where He left off.

Well, that's one opinion, apparently very scantly supported by scripture (if your posts are to be any gage?)

[LaMontre]

Acts3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:---------And why did He send the Holy Ghost when it says word for word He would send Jesus? I think God knows the difference.

Oh my.....

Please get this my friend, if you get nothing else from this:
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Ever hear of the Trinity?
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[LaMontre]

It has been common here for those whom I will call "defenders of church traditions" to post gobs of verses implying they contradict the truths we have exposed; when the verses do nothing of the sort.I think this is sad, since the bible as a whole clearly supports our views when carefully examined. To dispel all the errors of centuries of unbiblical tradition is a formidable task to take on. I am not prepared to do so
For the benefit of those I know are interested in getting to the truth of the Word I will make a few comments..


We define it as Paul used it in II Tim. 2:15.
We learn to separate "the Gospel of your {our} salvation (Eph. 1:13) from all the other "good news to others" e.g., Peter's offering Israel the kingdom even after Christ's death and resurrection in Acts 2-4.

Ah, so this is the "official" church doctrine then??

[LaMontre]

What was "hidden in the scriptures " from many or most was that their redeemer would be killed, rise from the dead for their sins. It was NOT in the scriptures (therefore a mystery, that ALL MEN, even Gentile dogs would be reconciled by that death and resurrection. This was not in the scriptures until revealed to Paul as the verses below testify..

Interesting that you can say such a thing:
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

It was there, it was simply hidden, just as Jesus was there, and simply hidden (but not from all).

Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Very good. The mystery was simply hidden, or encoded in the scriptures. But it was "in the scriptures".

Not!

Ah, well now I'm convinced! :lol2

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: .[/COLOR]

It was hidden from Israel in the scriptures, "in plain sight," just as Jesus true identity was hidden from many.

Paul even said quite plainly, that the gospel he preached was "according to the scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3-4).

The scriptures Paul cites were to Israel. He is revealing the mystery that Gentiles, apart from Israel are saved by this Gospel.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

As I showed above, there is more to Paul's Gospel than those two verses contain. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles, writing to Gentiles.

Two verses??

Actually you accused me above of quoting; how did you put it?

"gobs of verses".....

None of this says what you want it to say. If we read the scripture without the traditional dispensational lense, we come away with a very different doctrine. I am sorry to cast doubts upon your doctrine, but I think it's best for everyone concerned.

[Mechaberean]

As Paul pointed out long before that:
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

And this seals the fate of all, because:
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

---------And your point is what about what I wrote?