Pauline Dispensationalism

[Mechaberean]

also faith in the Old Testament didn't deal with their sin, it says in Hebrews actually animal sacrafice covered sin yearly. Faith in what God told them was imputed as righteousness,and the actions with that faith justified see James.

[LaMontre]

------------Yep but mine proves they did works or no covered sin which is relevant to the subject----------

You have proven nothing, and you didn't answer my question.

No, works are only revelvent to salvation in the minds of them that do them. In reality, there are no works that can bring righteousness at all. Even the works of Abraham were the RESULT of salvation through faith, not the reason for it.

It was considered the "trial of his faith" after he had already been pronounced righteous for his belief.

Your doctrine ignores clear biblical truth. Even ignoring the importance of the blood of Christ. Surely you don' expect this to be taken seriously??

[Mechaberean]

The book of Hbrews says it they had to sacrafice animals, the cross doesn't pull backwards.Sin was only covered by animal sacrafice.

[Mechaberean]

he wasn't justified until works see the book of James

[Mechaberean]

Also I believe they had no remission in the early church right after the cross unless they obeyed by repentance and water baptism and then they could receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Its John's baptism but Jesus whom it manifested to israel had been murdered,and now that Jesus had ascended He could be with them all after baptism through the presence of the Holy Ghost.So two things were different to John's baptism other then that it was the same to israel,repentance,and water baptism for the remission of sins.

[BlessedinHim]

The book of Hbrews says it they had to sacrafice animals, the cross doesn't pull backwards.Sin was only covered by animal sacrafice.

Where in Hebrews is this? Scripture please.

[LaMontre]

The book of Hbrews says it they had to sacrafice animals, the cross doesn't pull backwards.Sin was only covered by animal sacrafice.

Actually this just pointing out the obvious, it does not one thing to support your contentions. Hebrews also says this:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The OT saints recieved eternal inheritance through Jesus blood shed on the cross. NOT through animal sacrifice.

Your continually repeating this silly statement that "the cross doesn't pull backward" is false and misleading. Your entire dual gospel doctrine is simply false and requires that you ignore (or oddly interpret) certain passages of scripture.

The new covenant is certainly initiated, and it was initiated with Israel (Mat 26:28, Mar 14:24, Luk 22:20).

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

This [1 Cor 11:23-26] would hardly be appropriate had the New Covenant not been inaugurated, or if it applied exclusively to physical Israel. Paul also saw himself as having a role in the spread of the New Covenant among the Gentiles. "Who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant." [2 Cor. 3:6]. Jesus was the "mediator of a better covenant, which was established [past tense] on better promises" [Heb. 8:6-13]. The writer then quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34 and applied the prophecy of the New Covenant to the Church. This is not to say that everything related to the New Covenant has been completely fulfilled. Jeremiah's prophecy said "after those days ... all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." The universal acceptance of the New Covenant by Israel will only occur after the partial blindness is removed. With the Mosaic Covenant, most of the promises and benefits pertained to their dwelling in the 'promised land.' Yet, these promises were not realized by the very generation who received them! For more than 40 years they wandered in the wilderness. Does this mean the Covenant made at Mt Sinai was suspended while they wandered in the wilderness? No! They simply had to wait until they reached Canaan before they could enjoy the full benefits of this covenant put into place at Mt. Sinai. The same is true of Israel under the New Covenant. The 'promised land' of the New Covenant is the Millennial Kingdom.

From here: http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/prodisp.html

[LaMontre]

One cannot simply state that God was able to offer eternal salvation to anyone based upon the law. Were that so, what reason did Jesus have to die?

To suggest that God has two effective means of salvation (other than by grace through faith) is to relegate Christs sacrifice to an after-thought (something many dispensational believers do) and by the same rule, to suggest that God is going to re-instate the Old Covenant, is to require that Jesus die again.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The law could never bring about eternal salvation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

He has died "once for all."

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

These things were spoken to the Church.

To deny these truths is to undercut everything Jesus blood made possible.

[Mechaberean]

One cannot simply state that God was able to offer eternal salvation to anyone based upon the law. Were that so, what reason did Jesus have to die?

To suggest that God has two effective means of salvation (other than by grace through faith) is to relegate Christs sacrifice to an after-thought (something many dispensational believers do) and by the same rule, to suggest that God is going to re-instate the Old Covenant, is to require that Jesus die again.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The law could never bring about eternal salvation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

He has died "once for all."

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

These things were spoken to the Church.

To deny these truths is to undercut everything Jesus blood made possible.
---------read my posts and see no one has eternal life til sealed in 2Corinthians

[Mechaberean]

the cross doesn't pull backwards.David had his own righteousness,they were justified by works James says because the cross work hadn't been done yet to have faith in.