Pauline Dispensationalism

[HeIsEnough]

(yep it was there but it was hidden, but your right it was there)

:nod

Old Testament prophets desired to see what we see but they didn't back then.

The knowledge/understanding was not yet revealed to them. They spoke it, but it was not given to them to discern it. Abraham did see it though, as Christ said. Interesting though in that last bit, God showed Paul much through Abraham.

[LaMontre]

---------read my posts and see no one has eternal life til sealed in 2Corinthians

Reading your posts is the problem.

I responded to the ones that made understandable false statements. The rest I figured no one would understand anyway.

As far as your opinion that salvation didn't occur until "sealed in 2Corinthians".....do you have scripture to support the assertion?

Or is this just unsupported opinion #1001 (each one stated per post)?

Your conclusions are not drawn from scripture, rather they are imposed upon it.

Do you understand the problem with this method of interpretation??

Instead of allowing scripture to interpret scripture, that is, allowing the highest authority (scripture) to dictate your doctrine, you are assuming that your doctrine is the authority, and imposing it upon the scriptures.

Using that method, you could make the scripture say anything you want them to say. :tsk

[LaMontre]

The knowledge/understanding was not yet revealed to them. They spoke it, but it was not given to them to discern it. Abraham did see it though, as Christ said. Interesting though in that last bit, God showed Paul much through Abraham.

David saw it too.

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The implication is that the prophets knew what they were writing about.

As here:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

I am sorry, but to suggest that it was completely unknown simply cannot be Pauls point regarding the mystery.

With such scriptures as these, that conclusion simply makes no sense. And so, the sense of it has to be forced upon the scriptures by removing the problem from the context. That is, by simply saying that such scriptures as these are not to be applied to the current dispensation. Has a disturbing similarity to the method of many cults.

I find it intersting that this scripture;
Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Is in the context of this one;
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

[GTReturns]

LaMontre:I am sorry, but to suggest that it was completely unknown simply cannot be Pauls point regarding the mystery. With such scriptures as these, that conclusion simply makes no sense. And so, the sense of it has to be forced upon the scriptures by removing the problem from the context. That is, by simply saying that such scriptures as these are not to be applied to the current dispensation. Has a disturbing similarity to the method of many cults.
I find it intersting that this scripture;
Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Is in the context of this one;
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

1. You misidentify the mystery Paul reveals by comparing it to what is not mystery, ie, the prophesied suffering and death of the Son of Man. The mystery according to Paul is the Gospel of the Gentiles, i.e., that all men, Jew or Gentile are reconciled to God by the cross and this apart from Israel and the law.

2. You imply that we who are expositors of Paul's unique message to us Gentiles are cultist, and false teachers.

I will not judge you or your motives but I will say that your opposition to the Word of Truth as it consists in Paul's letters is a detriment to yourself and to any who may be influenced by it.

That Christendom has harbored some of the same distortions of the Gospel for centuries is no excuse for a sincere believer to stay influenced by them.

The turning away from the Word of Truth (Eph. 1:13) is recorded in scripture as in the last days of his life Paul wrote to Timothy in II Tim. 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

[LaMontre]

LaMontre:

1. You misidentify the mystery Paul reveals by comparing it to what is not mystery, ie, the prophesied suffering and death of the Son of Man. The mystery according to Paul is the Gospel of the Gentiles, i.e., that all men, Jew or Gentile are reconciled to God by the cross and this apart from Israel and the law.

That isn't my point here. Yes your right, but it was revealed through the scriptures.

2. You imply that we who are expositors of Paul's unique message to us Gentiles are cultist, and false teachers.

Have you read this thread??

Aligining yourself with these folks in this thread might not be the best idea.

I will not judge you or your motives but I will say that your opposition to the Word of Truth as it consists in Paul's letters is a detriment to yourself and to any who may be influenced by it.

LOL! Listening to these people in this thread, I think I'll take the risk.

That Christendom has harbored some of the same distortions of the Gospel for centuries is no excuse for a sincere believer to stay influenced by them.

What is that supposed to imply??

The turning away from the Word of Truth (Eph. 1:13) is recorded in scripture as in the last days of his life Paul wrote to Timothy in II Tim. 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Your back handed methods are rather insulting to my intelligence.

Why not speak plainly? I have had this discussion with many, and I can assure you that the arrogance that accompanies this false teaching in nothing new to me. I know you think you got it all figured out, thats nothing new.

But the fact is your doctrine contradicts what is clearly taught in scripture. Perhaps you should read the thread before you take the wrong side in the debate.

[HeIsEnough]

I am sorry, but to suggest that it was completely unknown simply cannot be Pauls point regarding the mystery.

There were some, I agree. I didn't mean to imply Abraham was exclusive, just that I believe Abraham was a central figure in Paul's teaching, because it was revelation knowledge of the scriptures by the prophets. God made the message 'fully manifest' to Paul.

[Mechaberean]

Reading your posts is the problem.

I responded to the ones that made understandable false statements. The rest I figured no one would understand anyway.

As far as your opinion that salvation didn't occur until "sealed in 2Corinthians".....do you have scripture to support the assertion?

Or is this just unsupported opinion #1001 (each one stated per post)?

Your conclusions are not drawn from scripture, rather they are imposed upon it.

Do you understand the problem with this method of interpretation??

Instead of allowing scripture to interpret scripture, that is, allowing the highest authority (scripture) to dictate your doctrine, you are assuming that your doctrine is the authority, and imposing it upon the scriptures.

Using that method, you could make the scripture say anything you want them to say. :tsk

---------I didnt say they werent saved I sayed they could walk away from it.I wish you would pull my quote your responding too and not ad lib. Until then I ignore ya.

[Mechaberean]

Also Jesus said this and this is how it was under the law Luke18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.---------Jesus didn't say believe on the cross and my work there for its not of works lest man should boast aw contrare He said the opposite until the cross.

[Mechaberean]

There were some, I agree. I didn't mean to imply Abraham was exclusive, just that I believe Abraham was a central figure in Paul's teaching, because it was revelation knowledge of the scriptures by the prophets. God made the message 'fully manifest' to Paul.

yep something that would happen in the future but not then =prophecy

[Mechaberean]

There were some, I agree. I didn't mean to imply Abraham was exclusive, just that I believe Abraham was a central figure in Paul's teaching, because it was revelation knowledge of the scriptures by the prophets. God made the message 'fully manifest' to Paul.

--------maybe you can be more specific about where in scripture Abraham saw what, not just say stuff.