Punished Forever?

[evjr]

Hootman, :wave

The point is Hell is a literal, actual place where the non-believer will be in pain, anguish, suffering, etc. etc. forever...

Just as Heaven is eternal, so is Hell. You can not have one without the other. The problem is us humans have a problem with believing in something like that. I can say I don't like it, but the fact remains that it exists. The reality is that it is so.

A book I highly recommend is Bill Wiese's "23 Minutes in Hell". Check it out.
:thumb

[Hootmon]

The point is Hell is a literal, actual place where the non-believer will be in pain, anguish, suffering, etc. etc. I dont disagree with any of that.


forever... That bit is a bit less obvious. You certainly cant prove it conclusively from Scripture.


Just as Heaven is eternal, so is Hell. You can not have one without the other. I agree. Both places are eternal. Scripture is very clear on that point.


The problem is us humans have a problem with believing in something like that. I can say I don't like it, but the fact remains that it exists. The reality is that it is so. Again, I agree. Both places exist, and both places are eternal.

[evjr]

Originally Posted by evjr
forever...

That bit is a bit less obvious. You certainly cant prove it conclusively from Scripture.

Hootman-

I think you can. How else do you interpret Mark 9:43-48? I think Jesus makes it very clear.

Isaac Watts said- "There is a dreadful hell, and everlasting pains; where sinners must with devils dwell, in darkness, fire, and chains."

Also, what do you do with the word "eternal"? That means in goes on forever with no end. And if it wasn't eternal, what kind of justice would that be? Murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. could do what they do and know that they would only be punished for a short time and then be annihilated. That would not be much of a deterrent.
Another note, God = eternal
everlasting punishment = eternal
everlasting life = eternal

Revelation 14:11 - the smoke of their torment...

[Hootmon]

Hootman-

I think you can. How else do you interpret Mark 9:43-48? I think Jesus makes it very clear. My interpretation is 'Going to hell ('gehenna' aka 'firey hell' aka 'Lake of Fire') is a very bad thing to be avoided at all costs.'

Also, neither the eternal Fire nor the undying Worm is YOU, because YOU can avoid both.


Also, what do you do with the word "eternal"? That means in goes on forever with no end. The word 'eternal' isnt in question. The place is eternal, and no one who is consigned there ever escapes it.


And if it wasn't eternal, what kind of justice would that be? Murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. could do what they do and know that they would only be punished for a short time and then be annihilated. That would not be much of a deterrent. You are basically saying that the Death Penalty is a lesser punishment than Life in Prison. I suspect most convicts would disagree with you on that point.

It is my opinion that consignment to the Lake of Fire, no matter how long the duration of their torment there, is sufficient 'deterrent'.



Another note, God = eternal
everlasting punishment = eternal
everlasting life = eternal I dont disagree with any of that. Its the notion that 'Punishment' is equivalent to 'ongoing Torment' that I have a problem with. There is a perfectly good Greek word for 'Torment' that isnt used in most 'proof' texts. I think it isnt used intentionally.


Revelation 14:11 - the smoke of their torment... Who are the they?

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


How do you interpret this verse?

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell ('gehenna').
(Mat 10:28)

[BlessedinHim]

if the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, wouldnt that imply that the punishment is indeed forever and that soul is in torment forever and it is neverending? In other words, their "body" does not burn up?

[Saved by Grace_06]

Just as God's goodness is forever expressed in His Heaven, God's wrath is forever expressed in His hell. All of God's attributes are eternal and perfect.

[Hootmon]

if the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, wouldnt that imply that the punishment is indeed forever and that soul is in torment forever and it is neverending? In other words, their "body" does not burn up?I suspect so. Just keep in mind that those verses are talking about a particular group of sinners...

While it may apply to all of the unrighteous dead, it would be a mistake to just assume it does and call it 'doctrine'.

[Hootmon]

Just as God's goodness is forever expressed in His Heaven, God's wrath is forever expressed in His hell. All of God's attributes are eternal and perfect.Some 'bad guys' are clearly stated as being tormented eternally. Namely, Satan (and his 'angels'), the AC, the FP and Takers of the Mark.

In other words, the Lake of Fire is eternal, and so are some of its residents. No surprises there.

What may be surprising is that you cant prove from Scripture that the rest of the 'generic' unrighteous dead suffer that fate without making some fairly large assumptions.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Some 'bad guys' are clearly stated as being tormented eternally. Namely, Satan (and his 'angels'), the AC, the FP and Takers of the Mark.

In other words, the Lake of Fire is eternal, and so are some of its residents. No surprises there.

What may be surprising is that you cant prove from Scripture that the rest of the 'generic' unrighteous dead suffer that fate without making some fairly large assumptions.


I don't have to prove anything. It is what it is. The doctrine of eternal ****ation has been a cardinal Christian doctrine since the church began. Why I'm I to believe otherwise today? Furthermore, there are no difference between the False prophet or the Anti Christ, and the unregenerated sinner. Apart from the grace of God, you could be "the" false prophet or the Anti Christ, or Hitler. And, I could too. Also, it is important to know that those who go to hell grow in their hated for God. Those who were adulterers and liars and thieves and blasphemers, etc., do not repent, but grow in their wickedness. Thus, the eternal wrath of God is expressed on them forevermore.

Jesus spoke often of the eternality of Hell. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."

[evjr]

Hootman-

So, it definitely sounds like you're open to the thought of eternal punishment? Just think about it. Could be...