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Kknight
October 20th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I'm not sure where to put this. I wanted to get some feedback on healing miracles. I can't tell you how frustrated I get when I run across articles and views such as this:

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/my-grace-i...r-you/#more-392

Don't get me wrong...I believe that God can heal anyone. I've seen miraculous healings first-hand (my wife was instantly healed of some serious problems with the pregnancy of our first child after being prayed over by a friend...our doctor was absolutely and completely baffled.) I've heard numerous second-hand (to me) accounts from close friends who have experienced BIG miraculous healings first hand. I know that God can and does do absolutely amazing things. I have a hard time reconciling this though with some of those very same friends who are dealing with very serious medical issues. Who have been prayed for by dozens and in some cases hundreds of people for years without being healed.

I will give two examples:

I have a friend who is a pastor. He is heavily involved in the spiritual warfare and deliverance ministries. My wife, myself, and several friends have all worked with him and seen first-hand some very direct spiritual confrontrations. Due to his "line of work" he is obviously under heavy spiritual attack. He has been fighting cancer for years. Dozens to hundreds (no exaggeration) of people have prayed for him continually for years. In addition to what he has witnessed within his ministry, he has also witnessed and participated in (via prayer, anointing and praying over, etc) many miraculous healings. Are you really going to tell me that the reason he hasn't been healed from his cancer is due to a lack of faith? Isn't it possible that God has some sort of purpose for what he is dealing with and that is why he has not been healed?

I have another friend (the one that I have a prayer thread about) who has also seen and participated in some amazing healings. He had a friend when he lived in Mexico who was in a horrendous motorcycle accident. He was told by the doctors that he would never walk again. My friend visited him in the hospital that same day, anointed him with oil and prayed over him. He was walking the next day! There is no denying that is a miracle from God. My friend has a degenerative disc condition in his back and neck that has been exacerbated by injuries. He has been anointed, prayed over, prayed for by many people for a number of years. He has obviously both seen and experienced miraculous situations both in his own life and in the lives of others. Again, are you seriously going to tell me that the reason he hasn't been healed is due to a lack of faith?

In both of these cases, even if you somehow manage to convince me that they have a lack of faith, you will never convince me that there was not even a single person, out of all the people that have prayed for them, that did not have enough faith. Keep in mind that in Acts 3, it was the faith of Peter and John that healed the lame man...not the faith of the lame man. He didn't go to the temple that day expecting or having the faith to be healed.

It seems heartless (if nothing else) to take the view that if you are sick/injured/whatever and have prayed/had people pray and haven't been healed it's because you haven't had enough faith. I've e-mailed Jack Kelley about this before (specifically about my friend) and he responded with "well, it's never God's fault, so it must be our fault." I'm not saying it's God's "fault"...I'm not saying that God can't do it...I'm not saying that God doesn't "want" us to be healed. I'm just saying that the view that "if your aren't healed it is due to a lack of faith" seems a bit myopic. Isn't it possible that there are other possible reasons? Isn't it possible that God sometimes has a purpose and a plan for suffering? Isn't it possible that suffering/hurt/sickness sometimes is a method of making you more reliant on Him? That somehow (in a way that we may not know or understand at the time) it is used to bring honor and glory to Him?

Am I wrong here? People like Jack Kelley are absolutely adament that their view is correct and that my view is unsupportable by scripture...and therefore my friends just haven't been healed because their faith isn't strong enough...come on, really?

ihurt
October 20th, 2008, 01:41 PM
I'm just saying that the view that "if your aren't healed it is due to a lack of faith" seems a bit myopic. Isn't it possible that there are other possible reasons? Isn't it possible that God sometimes has a purpose and a plan for suffering? Isn't it possible that suffering/hurt/sickness sometimes is a method of making you more reliant on Him? That somehow (in a way that we may not know or understand at the time) it is used to bring honor and glory to Him?

:thumb I totally agree with you!

acceptedinthebeloved
October 20th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I'm just saying that the view that "if your aren't healed it is due to a lack of faith" seems a bit myopic. Isn't it possible that there are other possible reasons? Isn't it possible that God sometimes has a purpose and a plan for suffering? Isn't it possible that suffering/hurt/sickness sometimes is a method of making you more reliant on Him? That somehow (in a way that we may not know or understand at the time) it is used to bring honor and glory to Him?


I agree with you, as well. :thumb You are very wise. Paul talks a lot about suffering and its purpose. Romans 8:17-18; 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, and others...

Paradigm
October 20th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I'm just saying that the view that "if your aren't healed it is due to a lack of faith" seems a bit myopic. Isn't it possible that there are other possible reasons? Isn't it possible that God sometimes has a purpose and a plan for suffering? Isn't it possible that suffering/hurt/sickness sometimes is a method of making you more reliant on Him? That somehow (in a way that we may not know or understand at the time) it is used to bring honor and glory to Him?

I agree with this. It has happened in my own life. I used to be one of those guys who spent all my free time in the gym, thinking "I need to be as strong as I can so I can defend myself against anyone".

Well this year I had a back injury back in Jan, and I still didn't get the message. About a month ago I tore my tricep tendon severely to the point that I now need surgery on my left elbow. Somehow I felt that this was God's way of telling me "why do you rely on yourself? you should be relying on me! not you!"

So I've come to terms with it, thank God that I can still walk, I can still move my left arm without severe pain, and thank God for all these marvelous technologies that will (hopefully) fix me back up (I'm expected to gain a max of 70% strength on my left tricep after the surgery, right now I'm at 20%). So basically, even if I regain functional strength, I can't rely on my own strength anymore and in a way Jesus has forced me to rely on him instead.

Paidfor
October 20th, 2008, 07:59 PM
I agree with you Kknight. I read Jack Kelly's article O You of Little Faith (http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/jack33.html) a couple of weeks ago and found it troubling just for this very reason. I think this view will lead people to discouragement and I think could lead to a kind of faith one-ups-manship - kind of 'my miracles better than your miracle' sort of thing.

I just think it is best if all the glory is given to God. His grace does not depend on us.

mary rae
October 20th, 2008, 09:05 PM
KKnight-my heart goes out to you. I, also don't think it to be a lack of faith that people aren't healed. It does hurt when well-meaning people tell uss it's a lack of faith.
I have a sister who's been a semi-cripple since birth with cerebral palsy. We've prayed for her healing, but it hasn't happened.
My husband and I have a devotional book by Joni E. Tada. I don't think she would have such a fruitful ministry, if it weren't for the suffering and sometimes painful effects of her paralysis.
The apostle Paul grappled with something,until the Lord told him "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in your weakness". The Lord performed many wonderful things through Paul, but basically said "No" to him with the coming of this thorn in his flesh.

HeIsEnough
October 20th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Isn't it possible that God sometimes has a purpose and a plan for suffering? Isn't it possible that suffering/hurt/sickness sometimes is a method of making you more reliant on Him? That somehow (in a way that we may not know or understand at the time) it is used to bring honor and glory to Him?

Absolutely.


Hebrews 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=2&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=5&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.



I haven't learned much but through suffering. I think Paul glorified the Lord all the more through suffering of all kinds. The key is to glorify God, and He will do the rest. Whether that means complete healing or not, God be praised. I believe this is the testimony that those who have suffered will share.

Robert
October 20th, 2008, 10:35 PM
:agree

pegmo
October 20th, 2008, 11:07 PM
Jack Kelley has put forth a couple of ideas that I don't agree with. He doesn't believe in lordship salvation. He believes many believing and practicing Catholics are saved. And then I recently saw these articles as well on his view of faith and healing and agree with your posting on this view.

He is excellent in some areas, but just with all teachers, one has to always be a Berean and check things to scripture.

seekingtruth1
October 20th, 2008, 11:09 PM
I agree as well as someone who has been chronically ill for many years I have prayed and sought other to pray for me and i belived I woudl get better. I still belive I will get better but so far it has not been an overite thing - I have greatly improved and if God tarries I am certain I woudl one day regain my health....and yes my faith in God to lead me to greater wisdom in my illness has been part of that.....or it is possible i will remain at my present level of wellness/illness and never improve....only God knows. I BELIEVED 100% my step dads brain tumor woudl be healed and after surgery the neurosurgous said he went in and couldnt find anything but blood and said it was just a rupture and pathology said all cells look great.....I Belived we had a miracle.....

But then 2 mos later he collapsed and he was found to have Stage 4 Glioblatoma - So awful.....let me tell you....
I still prayed.....but he died. We had faith, HE had faith that God coudl heal him....others did too.....But he passed.....

I read thsi article a whiel back and wanted to send off an email as well- I was mad about it.....JK is mostly a great teacher but there have been a few posts that made me cringe b/c I felt they didnt rep. accurately scripture....

Its very distressing he was indignant about it with you.....too bad he isnt motivter to reexamine His view....

So I agree with the OP....Paul never removed the thorn in his side and neithe r did GOD......I dont get why some get healed and other not.....both can be used for HIS glory but boy dont we wish we were the ones who got picked for the healing....;o) ?

Thanks for bringing this up.....I think its imp. we discuss these thinsg b/c even with good pastors....they arent perfect and can have some ideas that frustrate a belivers walk and lead to hoplessness and feeling Judged....