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DukeStirr
June 26th, 2007, 11:14 PM
I have taken selected quotes and words from various people... please take time in reading the whole post. You will be surprised by many of the citations....

Perhaps no other doctrine in early Christianity and in modern Latter-day Saint theology is more controversial and more misunderstood today than the doctrine that humans have divine potential. Vicious books and movies like "The God Makers" claim that Latter-day Saints deny the divinity of Christ and try to make ourselves into Gods, robbing the Father of His glory. Our true beliefs, which focus on Christ as our Savior and on our eternal relationship as children and eternal subjects of God, are much different than many people have been misled to believe… Let’s examine some quotes from various non-LDS Christian Leaders.

Clement of Alexandria:
1. But if thou dost not believe the prophets, . . . the Lord Himself shall speak to thee, "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but humbled Himself" . . . yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. Is it not then monstrous, my friends, that while God is ceaselessly exhorting us to virtue, we should spurn His kindness and reject salvation?
2.It [the knowledge of the Gospel] leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that we shall lead, according to God, and with gods; after we are freed from all punishment and penalty which we undergo, in consequence of our sins, for salutary discipline. After which redemption the reward and the honors are assigned to those who have become perfect; when they have got done with perfection, and ceased from all service, though it be holy service, and among saints. They become pure in heart, and near to the Lord, there awaits their restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior.

Origen, an early Christian writer:
1. Men should escape from being men, and hasten to BECOME GODS. . . .
2. Thou shalt resemble Him...having made thee even God to his glory.

Numerous critics claim that LDS religion is blasphemous and even Satanic because we allegedly think we will become gods. They say we try to rob God and Christ of their glory, the same dark sin that caused Lucifer to be cast to hell in Isaiah 14. When the critics make these claims, they never explain what LDS doctrine really is and what it is not. We absolutely do not believe that we will ever be independent of God or no longer subject to Him. We do not believe that we will take away His glory, but we only add to it by following Christ. For us, there is and always will be a need to be subject to God the Eternal Father, the Almighty God, the "God of gods and Lord of lords," as Deuteronomy 10:17 puts it. He is the One whom we worship and always will worship.

The modern Apostle Boyd K. Packer has clarified this issue:
The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.
There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him.

To those who follow Christ and receive His grace and power, great promises are extended. We are promised that we can receive "the fullness of God" through the grace of Christ (Ephesians 3:19). Christ said that we can become one with Him, as He is one with the Father (John 17:20-23). Paul said that Christians can become "joint heirs with Christ" and be glorified with Him (Romans 8:14-18). He challenged us to pursue the example of Christ "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Philippian 2:5,6). Peter said that through Christ, we can "put on the divine nature" and receive great and precious promises (2 Peter 1:3-4). Those who follow Christ can become "like Him" (1 John 3:2), can "inherit all things" (Rev. 21:7), and can be kings and priests before God (Rev. 1:6), sitting with Christ in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

After pondering the above-mentioned scriptures, let's turn to terminology. What do we call glorified, resurrected beings who, through Christ, receive eternal life and the fullness of God as joint-heirs with Christ, sitting with Him in his throne? Personally, I would prefer to call them angels who serve and represent God. However, the word that is used in the Bible and in other LDS sources to describe such beings is not generally angels, but the much more controversial term, gods. (In Doctrine and Covenants 132, "gods" are clearly higher than the angels - but they are nevertheless children of God and subject to Him.) Accept my apologies, but the choice of the term "gods" is not ours.

Christ himself spoke of humans when he quoted Psalms 82:6 and said, in John 10:34, "Ye are gods." As every serious Christian scholar knows, He was not saying that humans are God, but is often interpreted as saying that human representatives of God can be called "gods" in a very limited sense. Humans are not and will not be gods in the sense of Greek philosophy (absolute, ultimate, uncreated, independent beings). No, the terms "gods" when used in the Bible and LDS writings may be meant in a more limited sense not radically different in meaning than "angels" (though a difference in LDS sources is that "angels" are single while "gods" dwell in eternal family relationships, as discussed below). If we used the term "angels," the anti-LDS attacks would lose much of their zing. After all, how many people would be interested in seeing a movie called "The Angel Makers"? But the term "gods" is what God Himself has chosen to describe the divine potential of His sons and daughters. Let's now consider some examples.

The existence of other godlike beings is suggested by multiple scriptures that describe God as a "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17; Joshua 22:2, and Psalm 136:2). That phrase makes no sense if false pagan gods are meant, but perhaps it refers to angels as gods. Psalm 82:1 likewise says that God "standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Scholars know that the ancient Jews, including those in New Testament times, that angels were often described as "gods."
Not only angels, but even humans can receive the label "gods" in the scriptures. For example, the term "elohim" = "gods" is used to describe human judges in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9. Here authorized servants of God are called "gods" - again in a limited sense. Exodus 7:1 says that Moses was to be "god to Pharaoh" - undoubtedly referring to Moses as an authorized represent of God. (Also Adam, when he gained knowledge of good and evil, was said to have become "as one of us" by God in Genesis 3:22.) If the scriptures can call mortal judges and prophets "gods" in some sense, then that term is even more appropriate for immortal, resurrected beings who have become one with Christ and received the fullness of God.

If the Bible can use the term "gods" in to describe non-ultimate but heavenly, angelic beings who represent God, then Bible-believing people should not be outraged when Latter-day Saints use that term in much the same way. Our use of the term is clearly in a limited sense, referring to angelic, resurrected beings who receive great blessings and power from God, but remain subject to Him and serve and worship Him forever.

CS Lewis has said the following:
1. The people who keep on asking if they can't lead a good life without Christ, don't know what life is about; if they did they would know that "a decent life" is mere machinery compared with the thing we men are really made for. Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up. We are to be remade. All the rabbit in us will be swallowed up - the worried, conscientious, ethical rabbit as well as the cowardly and sensual rabbit. We shall bleed and squeal as the handfuls of fur come out; and then surprisingly, we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy.
2. Christ has risen, and so we shall rise. St. Peter for a few seconds walked on the water, and the day will come when there will be a remade universe, infinitely obedient to the will of glorified and obedient men, when we can do all things, when we shall be those gods that we are described as being in Scripture.
3. The command Be ye perfect [Matt. 5:48] is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and he is going to make good His words. If we let Him - for we can prevent Him, if we choose - He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, a dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said.

Where did the highly respected C.S. Lewis get such doctrine? From the Bible, which teaches us that we can indeed put on the divine nature and mature as sons and daughters of God, becoming like Him. In my view, it is our status as children of God that gives us the potential to become heirs and the potential to mature and become more like the Father. Paul expresses such a concept in Romans 8:14-18:

14 For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God....
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God;
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together;
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

We can be joint-heirs with Christ. There is divine glory to be revealed within us, for we have a divine inheritance as children of God. Beings who reach this potential could be called "gods" in a limited sense, for they serve the Father and are subject to Him forever. Just as earthly parents want their children to grow and become more like the parents, so our Father in Heaven wants us to grow and partake of his glorious gift of eternal life. It is not an instant process, but one that requires that we learn, obey, and strive, yet relying entirely on the grace of Christ in the process.

The goal of Christ and the Father is to help us grow and put on the divine nature, to become more like Christ and to be joint-heirs with Him. Within us is the divine potential to fully become sons and daughters of God, living in His presence and sharing in the fullness of eternal life that is His. This profound truth is the target of some of the most vile attacks on our religion, yet it is a truth held and taught by the original Christian Church.

Fortunately, Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christian denomination that accept what Peter taught on this issue. Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification.

Dr. Seth Farber: Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries. From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

While we have noted that the divine potential of man is found in the Old Testament, further insight comes from the Old Testament manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls. A great source for studying the Old Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls is The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg, Jr., Peter Flint, and Eugen Ulrich (San Francisco, California: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999). Numerous Old Testament passages are provided from the Dead Sea Scrolls and compared to the Masoretic text or Septuagint. The version of Psalm 135 from the Dead Sea Scrolls (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, p. 568) differs in many ways from the Masoretic Text used to prepare most modern Bible translation. One difference is the added emphasis given on "gods" in verses 5 and 6. Here is the DSS text, with changes relative to the Masoretic Text marked in italics:

5. know that the LORD is great, and that our God is above all gods.
6. The LORD does what pleases him, in heaven and on earth, to do as he does; there is none like the LORD, and there is none who acts like the King of gods, in the seas and in all (their) depths.

"King of the gods" is an interesting title for God, similar to the title "God of gods" in Deut. 10:17, which is reiterated in Psalm 136:2. Such titles don't make much sense if the "gods" are imaginary, evil beings. Would it be flattering to call someone the god of leprechauns and poltergeists? But the true God of the Bible, the only God with whom have anything to do, and to Whom all glory flows, is nonetheless properly praised as the God of gods. This makes sense in light of the divine potential of man.

The doctrine of divine human potential is easily misunderstood. To keep it clear, remember this: the growth and development and success of a child in no way detracts from the honor or glory of the parents, but adds to it. If we participate in Eternal Life as heirs of God, we will be worshiping and glorifying God fully and wonderfully - not taking or usurping his glory. And we will more perfectly and fully be able to say that we are His children, and He is our God (Rev. 21:7), and glory be to His name forever.


----------------------

There is a widely denounced LDS concept known as the "plurality of gods" which teaches that humans are sons and daughters of God - His offspring (Acts 17:28) - capable of becoming more like Him by accepting the fullness of the Gospel and grace of Christ (see also John 10:34,35; Matt. 5:48). The possibility of multiple "godlike" beings may be what Paul referred to when he said there are "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods" (KJV gives "lower than the angels" but the Hebrew word is "gods" - I guess it was just too painful for the translators to put down the correct word).

If we fully follow Christ, we can become joint-heirs with Him (Romans 8:14-18), becoming like him (1 John 3:2) by putting on the divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4-10). Such Christ-centered beings are sons and daughters of God (Acts 17:28; Heb. 12:9) who can become the kind of beings that Christ called "gods" in John 10:34. In 1 Corinthians 8:5,6, Paul notes that there are many gods (in the small "g" sense), but these are not beings that we worship, for to us, there is only one God, the Eternal Father. We believe that there may be and will be many resurrected beings who have become joint-heirs with Christ and can thus be called "gods," but they are not our Savior, our Creator, our Lord, and our God. To us, there is and always will be but one God, that Being who is properly called the "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17), the Almighty God, even Elohim, the Eternal Father. We will always worship and follow Him. A son growing up to be more like his father in no way detracts from the father or weakens their relationship - but can add to the joy and glory of the father. Indeed, helping that to happen is what being a good father is all about. There is a reason why God's most preferred title seems to be "Father."

Critics abhor our doctrines on this issue and claim that we are polytheistic. It is true that we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings, but they are one and comprise, with the Holy Ghost, one united Godhead. I consider myself a monotheist, a worshiper of the one true God. Rejecting the "one in substance" concept of post-biblical creeds does not make me a polytheist, in my opinion.

DukeStirr
June 26th, 2007, 11:17 PM
MODERN-DAY SCHOLARS-

Daniel C. Petersen:
Members of the LDS Church will discover that their fundamental belief about human salvation and potential is not unique of a Mormon invention. Latin Catholics and Protestants will learn of a doctrine that, while relatively foreign to their ears, is nevertheless part of the heritage of the undivided Catholic Church of the first millennium. Members of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches will discover on the American continent an amazing parallel to their own belief that salvation in Christ involves our becoming "partakers of the divine nature.

Father Vajda states:
[T]he Mormons are truly "godmakers": as the [LDS] doctrine of exaltation explains, the fullness of human salvation means "becoming a god." Yet what was meant to be a term of ridicule has turned out to be a term of approbation, for the witness of the Greek Fathers of the Church . . . is that they also believed that salvation meant "becoming a god." It seems that if one's soteriology cannot accommodate a doctrine of human divinization, then it has at least implicitly, if not explicitly, rejected the heritage of the early Christian church and departed from the faith of first millennium Christianity.

QUOTES FROM THE EARLY CHRISTIANS:

Saint Irenaeus:
Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.

The aforementioned Saint Clement of Alexandria also said:
If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men

Saint Justin Martyr of the 2nd Century:
In the beginning men were 'made like God, free from suffering and death," and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.

In the early fourth century Saint Athanasius - that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named - also stated his belief in deification in terms very similar to those of Lorenzo Snow:

1. The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life
2. He became man that we might be made divine
Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said:
"But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

Notice that I am citing only unimpeachable Christian authorities here - no pagans, no Gnostics. All five of the above writers were not just Christians, and just orthodox Christians - they were orthodox Christian saints. Three of the five wrote within a hundred years of the period of the Apostles, and all five believed in the doctrine of deification. This doctrine was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times, and it is still an important doctrine in some Eastern Orthodox churches.

… and from the non-LDS Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology from the article titled "Deification" we read:

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God'.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g., Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4) and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 4:5-7) and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23).
The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so men may be made gods' and become the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: 'Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfillment of all times and ages',... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, 'He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.'...
Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian."

seachelle76
June 28th, 2007, 03:29 AM
I have taken selected quotes and words from various people... please take time in reading the whole post. You will be surprised by many of the citations....

Perhaps no other doctrine in early Christianity and in modern Latter-day Saint theology is more controversial and more misunderstood today than the doctrine that humans have divine potential. Vicious books and movies like "The God Makers" claim that Latter-day Saints deny the divinity of Christ and try to make ourselves into Gods, robbing the Father of His glory. Our true beliefs, which focus on Christ as our Savior and on our eternal relationship as children and eternal subjects of God, are much different than many people have been misled to believe… Let’s examine some quotes from various non-LDS Christian Leaders.

Fortunately, Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christian denomination that accept what Peter taught on this issue. Eastern Orthodoxy still retains much of the original Christian doctrine of theosis or deification. Dr. Seth Farber: Eastern Christian theology, Orthodoxy, has not been marred by the misanthropic premises that have been characteristic of Western Christian theology, Roman Catholic and Protestant, for centuries. From the early Greek fathers to modern Orthodox theologians, one dominant theme has sounded again and again: the purpose of the Incarnation was to make it possible for human beings to be reunited with God, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). As St. Athanasius put it, "He (the Son of God) became man, that we might become God."

There is a widely denounced LDS concept known as the "plurality of gods" which teaches that humans are sons and daughters of God - His offspring (Acts 17:28) - capable of becoming more like Him by accepting the fullness of the Gospel and grace of Christ (see also John 10:34,35; Matt. 5:48). The possibility of multiple "godlike" beings may be what Paul referred to when he said there are "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods" (KJV gives "lower than the angels" but the Hebrew word is "gods" - I guess it was just too painful for the translators to put down the correct word).

If we fully follow Christ, we can become joint-heirs with Him (Romans 8:14-18), becoming like him (1 John 3:2) by putting on the divine nature (2 Peter 1: 4-10). Such Christ-centered beings are sons and daughters of God (Acts 17:28; Heb. 12:9) who can become the kind of beings that Christ called "gods" in John 10:34. In 1 Corinthians 8:5,6, Paul notes that there are many gods (in the small "g" sense), but these are not beings that we worship, for to us, there is only one God, the Eternal Father. We believe that there may be and will be many resurrected beings who have become joint-heirs with Christ and can thus be called "gods," but they are not our Savior, our Creator, our Lord, and our God. To us, there is and always will be but one God, that Being who is properly called the "God of gods" (Deut. 10:17), the Almighty God, even Elohim, the Eternal Father. We will always worship and follow Him. A son growing up to be more like his father in no way detracts from the father or weakens their relationship - but can add to the joy and glory of the father. Indeed, helping that to happen is what being a good father is all about. There is a reason why God's most preferred title seems to be "Father."

Critics abhor our doctrines on this issue and claim that we are polytheistic. It is true that we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings, but they are one and comprise, with the Holy Ghost, one united Godhead. I consider myself a monotheist, a worshiper of the one true God. Rejecting the "one in substance" concept of post-biblical creeds does not make me a polytheist, in my opinion.

You are seriously suggesting that the LDS doctrine is the same as that of the Orthodox Christian view of theosis? You're mad. We Orthodox don't believe that we become God or gods at all. Theosis isn't at all what you're making it out to be. It is not possible for any created being to become God or even part of God. Only through our communion with Christ are we able to experience what it is to be fully human. Through this communion with Christ we are able to conform ourselves to Him. It is the process of becoming holy. It is a work that Christ does in us.

Say what you will. The LDS really think they'll potentially become gods someday. Having their own planets, creating their own spiritual children, having their own plan of salvation for their own created folks. But, they'll still be under God the Father and Jesus so that makes the additional belief okay?

Please read my post on Mormonism in the other thread. It is regarding Christology and the Virgin Birth. Your faith may borrow certain ideas here and there, but your additions and rejections of other concepts have implications.

DukeStirr
June 29th, 2007, 02:30 PM
if Athanasius, Augustine, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Clement of Alexandria, and others, including C.S. Lewis in modern days, can teach the doctrine of deification and still be accepted as Christians, why are Latter-day Saints said to be non-Christian for such beliefs?

seachelle76
June 29th, 2007, 08:32 PM
if Athanasius, Augustine, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Clement of Alexandria, and others, including C.S. Lewis in modern days, can teach the doctrine of deification and still be accepted as Christians, why are Latter-day Saints said to be non-Christian for such beliefs?

LDS doesn't believe the same as the Early Church Fathers on theosis. Nice try. Don't try to even argue that you believe the same thing as we do on this topic. We all know you don't. I'm Orthodox, I know what we believe and I know it isn't what you believe on this topic. LDS are non-Christian because they deny the trinity, have a wrong Christology, and are as far removed from the Orthodox faith as East is to West. Most of the people you list were actually part of the Church and their faith isn't yours. LDS is only a poor substitute with a false notion of God, a false apostolic succession, a false prophet, a false gospel, and not a shred of archaeological or historical evidence to verify any of it.

Christ said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church and they haven't. This isn't what your LDS faith teaches. You think it all fell apostate early on until Joseph Smith restored it. Your entire faith is based on calling Christ a liar.

MysteryMan
July 14th, 2007, 12:39 PM
Dare i ask you to source your assertion that LDS beliefs and Early Christian beliefs on the potential of man to become as gods are not in harmony? I am afraid i am disinclined to simply take circular logic as some counter argument for what I must call a coherent and well sourced argument by DukeStirr.

Don't reply to gold with trash. It's rude.

Sing4Him
July 14th, 2007, 01:23 PM
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
John 1:1-4


And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Phil. 2:11

Sing4Him
July 14th, 2007, 01:33 PM
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Matt 28:16-18

There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. 1 Sam. 2:2


Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Cor. 1:2


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

WhitemoonG
July 14th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Duke

Sorry, I think I understand a lot of what you are saying, or trying to say here, and I'll give you some credit for obviously putting a lot of effort into it;

But, I'm not buyin' it. At first glance, I can see lots of holes and assumptions and assumed meanings of things, and perhaps we can clarify some of that in greater detail when I've got more time.


First, you spend a great deal, if not most all of your thread talking about the divination of man, God, "gods" here, "gods" there, and one issue I question is what seems to be such a loose use of the term, that many if most already have qualified to be included in the description. And, it seems that any casual use of the term, that may apply to much of what you cite, you seem determined to enshrine as validation of the speaker clealy using and meaning the most serious possible connotations or definition of the word.


EXAMPLE: In the scene in the movie the "Shawshank Redemption," after Andy Dufresne managed to cleverly get the nasty overseeing officer to get 3 ice cold beers for each of the inmates working on tarring the roof, which amazed everyone, the character/narrator Red talks about that moment, how suddenly this (for them) unprecedented indulgence of sitting in the sun, relaxing and sipping ice cold beer, had them feeling for a brief moment what it must be like to be a free man, and for one brief moment they all felt like the "gods of all creation."

Does this mean that years from now, someone will cite the movie as contemporary proof that even Hollywood preaches that "all men are Gods", or whatever.



Of course, Scripture abounds with references to other peoples, and even straying Israelites "worshipping other gods, etc." Baal, all sorts of the egyptian "gods," the marker on Mars Hill "to the unknown god," etc.


Does this validate all of this registrar of "gods" as being exactly that?
Or are they often referred to as "false gods?" Is the term used loosely all over the place scriptural validation of this registrar of "gods," or at times simply noting that various nations and peoples acted as though they "believed" in these other "gods" as "gods", or that their actions were as though these false "gods" to them became like idols, or "gods" or golden calves, because of deviant obsession and attention afforded such?


Although I don't know that he's said it in so many words, it wouldn't surprise me to hear Adam Morrison say something like, "yeah man, I Love basketball. Lately I've been eating, sleeping, drinking basketball!! It's become like my God, dude." With derivation patterns possibly similar to some of what you cite, does this mean Basketball is now in the pantheon of 'gods?" "Basketball Jones" has now celestially progressed to "basketball god?"


Judaism, in a way that puts all of us to shame in a way, believed/believes in only one G-d, Yah-eh, that they worship, love, fear and respect so seriously that they refuse to even say or write his name! That simply doing that brings human imperfection too close to his eternal perfection. Christianity believes in the same G-d also, despite obvious differences as to the complete identity of,and only hope of bridging the gap in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How does this square with this slickly defined hodgepodge of seemingly watered down, diluted and morphing collection of miniature, almost ripe, not yet ripe, almost ready for harvest, needs a bunch of work yet "gods" that you allude to?




ALSO, and perhaps MOST IMPORTANTLY:



In your long presentation on all this man progressing, man divination stuff, you're a god, I'm a god, everyone's a god god stuff:


YOU COMPLETELY LEAVE OUT THE OTHER HALF OF THE ISSUE, WHICH IN MY HUMBLE OPINION IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT;

Heck with man, heck with me, will worry about my minimal significance, that small chops later.


The other half of this, as clearly stated by one of the original MORMON heavyweights, Lorenzo Snow, is that

"AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS.... "


Forget this business for a minute about the "divination" of man;

What about G-d's CHECKERED PAST, according to Mormonism and you?

What about this business of G-d once being LIKE US? And then he supposedly progressed, got his act together, finally overcame being as sinful, screwed up, flawed, FAULTY, FAULTY! as man is, as we are, and eventually overcame this CHECKERED PAST to become perfect, almighty, etc. and deserving of worship etc?!

Holy scripture refers to G-d and his many attributes in many ways, but I recall reading verses praising him as the eternally unchanging almighty G-d, from everlasting to everlasting! THAT is my G-d, Duke!

And, it clearly is NOT your god, or Mormonism's god, Duke.

If you want to believe in this kind of "god" , checkered, messed up, imperfect past and all, eventually getting his act together, etc. that's your perogative.

But NOT with me, and NOT HERE!


Also, LDS theology has it that even now, in his supposed advanced, progressed into "the highest degrees of celestial glory" or whatever after his checkered corrupt past, your god has a bod like you and I!

Let's think about that a bit. Remember Sing 4 HIm's timely reference to Jesus Christ in John 1:1` He (the Word) not only was from the eternal beginning, ( not your mormon 'god's' 1st creation) and the Word is God.

And shortly thereafter, the apostle John states that "the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." So, putting aside the miraculous nature of the incarnation and virgin birth themselves, for a moment, the statement of John has it that the word becoming flesh was a miraculous development INTO FLESH of the Word that previously hadn't "become flesh" waiting of course for the "fulness of time."



So, I'm a bit confused here. Your mormon 'god" is flesh, as stated clearly by Joseph Smith. Namely, I'm supposed to believe that he has a prostate, a femoral artery, an appendix, armpits, freckles, ? Since the Bible, and theologians like Anasthasius that you referred to, and Christianity believe that Jesus is "very G-d, of very G-d," and Jesus himself told the high priest that "before Abraham was, I am,",


I'm a little curious about this mormon god has a bod stuff. When Jesus Christ was made flesh , and since our mormon "god" was and is flesh, did they both have red hair? Are they right or left handed? Did god's pinkie ever have a sore day or two when he and Jesus high fived too much?

How many bowel movements a day does "god" have?



Sorry, you are entitled, as always, to your beliefs.

Don't waste your and my time trying to get me for a minute to accept mormonism's weird (and blasphemous!) concepts of "god." Blasphemous? Absolutely! Fair and deserved? Absolutely!


An assignment for you, field report it you like. Try taking all that stuff of yours, and in particular mormonism's hideous concepts of this dragged down,
started out in the mud, then out of the mud "god" of yours, and get as close as you are allowed in an Orthodox or Hassidic Jewish temple, and explain to the chief Rabbi how this "god" of yours and the G-d of Israel, the worshipped, respected and feared Yah-eh are really one and the same.


Good luck! Enjoy! And remember, their reaction won't be because of anything I've said!

Sing4Him
July 14th, 2007, 05:57 PM
Good luck! Enjoy! And remember, their reaction won't be because of anything I've said!

WhitemoonG-- Duke is an inactive member. Please see under his name. Thank you.