image of the beast

[SamSeeks]

The individual must have a personal revelation (understanding) of their relationship with Jesus Christ. That determines their spiritual condition.

When it comes to understanding doctrine, I do not believe it is profitable to believe something just because your church teaches it that way. Like the noble Bereans who Paul spoke to (Acts 17:10-11) we need to search the Scriptures for ourselves.


And yet, you said this above:
I believe the Word of God (the Holy Bible) is infallible, but our understanding is not.

So, we have to search the Scriptures for ourselves, but we can't be sure if we are understanding it correctly. Do I have that correct?

Sam

[kenod]

And yet, you said this above:
So, we have to search the Scriptures for ourselves, but we can't be sure if we are understanding it correctly. Do I have that correct?
Sam

Jesus' promise is that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. First you need to be sure that you have received the Holy Spirit - then you are on your way! If you are trusting The Guide, you need not worry. ... He will lead you into all the Truth that it is ordained for you to know.

[SamSeeks]

Jesus' promise is that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. First you need to be sure that you have received the Holy Spirit - then you are on your way! If you are trusting The Guide, you need not worry. ... He will lead you into all the Truth that it is ordained for you to know.

So, how would I know for sure that I have received the Holy Spirit? Since, as you say, our understanding of Scripture is not infallible, is that the only way that I could have infallible understanding of Scriptures?

Sam

[christfollower]

Jesus' promise is that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth. First you need to be sure that you have received the Holy Spirit - then you are on your way! If you are trusting The Guide, you need not worry. ... He will lead you into all the Truth that it is ordained for you to know.

But there are millions of Christians who have received the Holy Spirit and are earnestly searching for the Truth, but they come to different conclusions. How then do we know who is right and who is wrong? Someone has to be. I guess John Smith felt like no one was right, which is why he went off on his own. He wasn't the only one though. This is basically why "Nondenominationals" came about. No one else was right in their eyes, so the figured they would just go off on their own and have the "real" Truth in their church...

[Hootmon]

How then do we know who is right and who is wrong? Someone has to be.Why?

[kenod]

So, how would I know for sure that I have received the Holy Spirit? Since, as you say, our understanding of Scripture is not infallible, is that the only way that I could have infallible understanding of Scriptures?

Sam

It's a bit like asking "How do I know I'm hungry"?

Anyway, if you want to know if you have received the Holy Spirit, then find out how the first Christians knew they had received it. Its in Acts. Some things are real simple.

I suppose you realize that you have successfully derailed my thread ... but I don't mind ... maybe someone will come along and get us back on track :)

[HeIsEnough]

So, how would I know for sure that I have received the Holy Spirit?

If ones asks, in spirit and in truth, then it becomes a question of whether God's word (as in is God trustful in what He says) is trustworthy.

He says He will give the Spirit to those who ask.

If you "want to know for sure", then that only accentuates your doubt, not God's trustworthiness.

He says He will do it, and if He promised it, what exactly in all of creation could stop that from happening?

[kenod]

But there are millions of Christians who have received the Holy Spirit and are earnestly searching for the Truth, but they come to different conclusions. How then do we know who is right and who is wrong? Someone has to be. I guess John Smith felt like no one was right, which is why he went off on his own. He wasn't the only one though. This is basically why "Nondenominationals" came about. No one else was right in their eyes, so the figured they would just go off on their own and have the "real" Truth in their church...

Paul recognized the problem you have identified.

1 Cor 3:1-3
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


Hebrews 5:12-14
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If I am looking for a good Bible teacher, I look for one who accepts the Bible totally, and does not try to explain anything away - such as "that was only for the apostles". I like the all or nothing approach.

[BruceM]

Hi Kenod,

You mentioned:

Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Col 3:5) which implies that anything we put before God and His Word is false worship. I think worship, as used of the beast and his image, may be more akin to how people blindly followed Hitler - some willingly because they believed in him, some for the sake of convenience. These two forms of allegiance correspond to the mark of the beast in the forehead (mind) and in the right hand (co-operation).

What you said about the mind and co-operation is interesting, and might be part of the underlying reason why the mark is placed in those locations, but I believe it has to be a physical mark and not just spiritual.

It mentions that nobody will be able to buy or sell, which also means they will not be able to work, without the mark of the beast. Every single store, workplace, flee market, hospital, government entity, etc. will have to have machines that will read these marks so that only those with the mark will be able to do anything. The way it affects people in Revelation means it has to be observable or readable. It can not just be a spiritual mark to fulfill the prophecies, although the underlying reason for taking it is spiritual.

Love,

Bruce

[kenod]

Hi Kenod,

You mentioned:



What you said about the mind and co-operation is interesting, and might be part of the underlying reason why the mark is placed in those locations, but I believe it has to be a physical mark and not just spiritual.

It mentions that nobody will be able to buy or sell, which also means they will not be able to work, without the mark of the beast. Every single store, workplace, flee market, hospital, government entity, etc. will have to have machines that will read these marks so that only those with the mark will be able to do anything. The way it affects people in Revelation means it has to be observable or readable. It can not just be a spiritual mark to fulfill the prophecies, although the underlying reason for taking it is spiritual.

Love,

Bruce

Thanks for getting us back on track!

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The fact that the mark is in the forehead and the right hand suggests to me that it is not a literal mark in those locations. Both the forehead and the right hand are very symbolic throughout Scripture. Quite possibly it might involve obtaining official sanction in some form - ID, registration, etc.

Do you think the reference to "no man" means every one of the 6.5 billion people in the world? This seems unlikely to me. I think it is talking about everyone in a particular category. Something similar happens in China today -only those church groups who have official approval are allowed to function as a church. I know of "non-approved" Christians in China who are afraid to have their photos placed on the internet for fear of persecution.

My OP was aimed at trying to understand the form of the beast and the image, rather than trying and identify who it could be. It seems to me that both will be religious organisations who will have the power to sanction those Christian groups which are approved and those which are not.