The Emerging/Emergent Church

[funmudder]

There seems to be a sore lack in understanding the "when" that hell becomes that place of torment. As I read in the threads where emergent apostacy is being defended, one thing (of many) keeps popping up: The lack of Biblical education over modern day author's books.

One person made the statement "Anyone who believes in unlimited atonement would say that there are people in Hell for whom Jesus died."

Alrighty. Here is the ultra-condensed-not-too-much-background version of an actual Biblically based answer to that:

The answer varies depending on when you are talking about. Before Christ died/rose or after? Before the believers get resurrected or after?

There is a place called Sheol in Hebrew (mentioned in Psalms) and Hades in Greek. It's the abode of the dead. It's where the souls of people who died went and still go.

Jesus describes two people who died and both went to Hades (Luke 16). The rich man who didn't trust in God went to the side of Hades that was hot and nasty. The poor man who did trust in God went to the part called Abraham's Bosom, a place of comfort. Between these two parts is a chasm that can't be crossed. Once you die you go where you go and can't change sides. So, before Christ died/rose those who trusted in God (like Adam, Moses, David, and this poor dude) went to the pleasant side of Hades. Those who did not trust in God went to the unpleasant side. Think of Hades like a waiting room.

When Christ died/rose the pleasant side was emptied. All of those souls were now in the presence of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8). Since that time, all those who put their trust in God, when they die, go directly to the presence of the Lord, no need to go wait in Hades for a while. Some people refer to this as Heaven, but it isn't the Heaven with streets of gold and pearly gates. More on that later. What is this presence of the Lord, this Heaven like? No idea. It's gotta be pretty cool though, right?

At some point in the future, those who have died and had their faith in Christ will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:50+). These bodies will never get sick or old or die. At some point after this, God is going to nuke the universe and start over. he is going to reshape/recreate out universe. This is found in Revelation 21. That is when we will be in the New Heaven with the streets of gold and pearly gates.

So, if a Christian dies today, they go to Heaven, which is in the presence of the Lord. At some point they will get a new physical body which will, at some point, live in the New Heaven.

What about those souls in Hades? What is Hell? If someone who does not put their trust in God, someone who is not a Christian dies, they go to that nasty side of Hades which has been filling up this whole time. It's a hot unpleasant place, but it isn't Hell.

At some point, these souls too will be given a new resurrection body just like the Christians get. In Revelation 20 it talks about how they will be judged by their works. This judgement isn't like "You go to Hell, you go to Heaven" judgement. It's a reward judgement, like the Olympics. It says in Rev. 20 that those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life will not enter the New Heaven.

All of these people will be cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons. Satan is not in charge in Hell. He won't be walking around with his demons like a prison warden and guards. He is right in there with the rest of the people who took the easy road in matters of life and faith.

So, to sum up. What most people think of as Heaven and Hell won't happen until the very end of things. Between now and then souls are sent to a holding place where they are conscious and aware of who, what, where, when, why, and how. Those who are in Christ are in the presence of the Lord awaiting the New Heaven and New Earth. Those who are not in Christ are awaiting their sentencing hearing before being sent to prison.

Does that help?

Jesus died for EVERYONE, but not everyone will accept His gift.

[JoelH]

Well, now, I don't know if I would call changing the presentation of the Gospel a heresy.

Changing the substance of the Gospel would be wrong, but the format in which it is presented? No, I can't agree with that. Paul said he became all things to all people so that he could preach the Gospel to them all. Paul quoted Greek philosophers in order to present the Gospel to the Greeks. He recognized that the Gospel could be presented in a language his hearers would understand. He didn't change the essentials of the Gospel - he changed the presentation.

Anyway, we don't "do" church the way they did in the first century - that's a historical fact. So, how can we say that the way we do it now is the only acceptable way?

The problem I see is not that the Emergents are changing so much... but that the Church has already changed to keep up with the times. We've already been influenced by the world around us. We've already adapted our message to be more palatable to the World. And, imo, the Catholic church is the biggest cause of this adaptation - you should check out their methods of gaining converts, especially those that they used in South America.

As far as being afraid of post-modernism in the church... The only reason, imo, that it is so feared is because the church has already embraced the world's "modernism". Modernism is equally as worldly as post-modernism. At least post-modernism allows for spiritual experiences and doesn't dismiss them as superstition. This is at least a bit closer to the culture of the early church that we read about in the NT.

IMO, the church should pay heed to the Emergents in some things. Neither reject it out of hand, nor accept it out of hand. But the Emergent movement is raising a lot of questions that each Christian should be asking. Mostly: what about the way we do church is man-made tradition, and what is the heart of the Gospel? We have allowed a LOT of traditions to creep in. We have all been influenced to a great extent by the modes of worldly thinking around us. We need to ask ourselves what things can we lose and what things should we hold on to for dear life.

For example, is it really necessary to have a building to go to church? Why do we have sermons and is there another way we could learn (besides the lecture format)? Is the modern-day "church" really equipping the saints to preach the gospel? Is leading a person through the "sinner's prayer" really the best evangelism technique?

These are some of the things I've seen Emergents asking... I think they are valid questions and in many instances are evidence of spiritual maturing.

In short, I think people are jumping the gun with labelling Emergent as heretical. Some of the people in it have surely expressed heretical ideas, I am not disputing that. But many haven't. And if people in the movement love Jesus, then we shouldn't be so quick to marginalize them into "heretic" status and thus stop our ears from hearing them.

JMHO.

You might have presented a very nice lecture in sociology, but unfortunately it is not theology, let alone Bible teaching. This is not, as you dismissed, a "cultural issue". The concept of right and wrong, presenting something as truth transcends the Aristotle to Confucian philosophical realms.

No wonder the church in Asia, which BTW is not stuck with this garbage (yet), is growing, especially if you ask the Wenzhou businessmen or Beijing intellectuals, they are doing the gospel "the old-fashioned way with plain preaching and one-to-one hard witnessing", is exploding onto the scene while the Western churcfhes with Rick Warren and Emergent church, is not doing so well.

[grape on the vine]

:spew :lol

Just because an emerging cult calls itself "Christian" does not really make it so now does it?

When people repeatedly point out the outright lies in the emerging church blather using the scripture CHIRSTIANITY is based on, doesn't that make YOU stop and think just a little bit?

Oh great... you're back!!! :wave Just kidding. Welcome back! Hope the trip went well.

As to your post... Yes, it does make me stop and think. It does seem however that this consideration is not afforded on the other side. I won't comment to anyone specifically, just saying that it seems that way.

[WhitemoonG]

Joel H Bless you, and Bravo! Perfectly said!




Grape: Regarding Rob Bell and his Universalism, everybody's saved, whether they acknowledge Jesus or not;



please comment on this for me, verses directly quoting Jesus Christ, the Lord.



Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven.






As always with him, (Bell) and others in this anemic, diluted to unrecognizeable, distinctive lacking "Christianity Lite,"


Bell's quote you mention has a nice ring to it.

However, SADLY, it's very hard to see that it means much of anything, considering that just about anything regarding WHO JESUS IS, HOW HE WOUND UP IN A HUMAN BODY, WHETHER HE IS GOD, OR SORT OF ALMOST MAYBE BUT MAYBE NOT QUITE GOD, WHAT HE DID ON EARTH WAS, OR WAS NOT ALL ABOUT, OR IS NOT POSSIBLE TO REALLY KNOW WHAT HE WAS KINDA ABOUT, OR MAYBE MIGHT HAVE INVOLVED SOMETHING SLIGHTLY MORE THAN BEING A REALLY COOL BUDDY, INSPIRING EXAMPLE , etc. might be sort of the "Truth?"

What does it really prove or matter to make a nice warm fuzzy about Jesus and people trusting him, when any distinctive BELIEF, or TEACHING, or (horror of horrors!!) DOCTRINE about WHO/WHAT you are trusting doesn't matter. Why the fuss over anything DISTINCTIVE and VITAL about Jesus,

when what matters is how WE live, and trampoline jump?

Notice how (according to Bell) WE are the important point? How WE live?

Doctrine, schmoctrine, who cares about all those teachings and beliefs, otherwise known as what we as Christians hold to be "the truth" as spelled out in this source known as the Bible, that some may have heard of?



The entire New Testament, and especially crystal clear over, and over, and over, in the epistles of Paul, is our charge as Christians to boldly


PROCLAIM THE TRUTH of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.




Why then are emergents, McLaren and Bell highly visible examples, spending their lives on this "exciting" "mystery" of "seeking the truth," and never really having anything tangible to proclaim, because we can't really be sure of much of anything, and have to be obsessively concerned that any watered down nothing might still "offend someone?"


Why supposedly (other than to confuse lots of the easily confused!) talk about "trusting" or "following" someone you supposedly can't/won't ever really know or admit anything distinctive about, other than the need to start up "conversations?" ( That never conclude anything!)



Really quaint that Bell has a line or two about "trusting Jesus," when "Jesus" can be anything or not anything as anybody sees fit!

I daresay this isn't what the entire New Testament, and especially the passionate inspired word through Paul, is all about.



And for all the misleading confusion and deception by which these emergents are damaging people, I've no doubt our precious Lord Jesus Christ will have some stark things to share with them. Not that I personally would wish it on anyone. But the Gospels lay out very frankly what the Lord thinks of those who damage and deceive, especially when they could or should know better.

[grape on the vine]

Joel H Bless you, and Bravo! Perfectly said!




Grape: Regarding Rob Bell and his Universalism, everybody's saved, whether they acknowledge Jesus or not;



please comment on this for me, verses directly quoting Jesus Christ, the Lord.



Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven.






As always with him, (Bell) and others in this anemic, diluted to unrecognizeable, distinctive lacking "Christianity Lite,"


Bell's quote you mention has a nice ring to it.

However, SADLY, it's very hard to see that it means much of anything, considering that just about anything regarding WHO JESUS IS, HOW HE WOUND UP IN A HUMAN BODY, WHETHER HE IS GOD, OR SORT OF ALMOST MAYBE BUT MAYBE NOT QUITE GOD, WHAT HE DID ON EARTH WAS, OR WAS NOT ALL ABOUT, OR IS NOT POSSIBLE TO REALLY KNOW WHAT HE WAS KINDA ABOUT, OR MAYBE MIGHT HAVE INVOLVED SOMETHING SLIGHTLY MORE THAN BEING A REALLY COOL BUDDY, INSPIRING EXAMPLE , etc. might be sort of the "Truth?"

What does it really prove or matter to make a nice warm fuzzy about Jesus and people trusting him, when any distinctive BELIEF, or TEACHING, or (horror of horrors!!) DOCTRINE about WHO/WHAT you are trusting doesn't matter. Why the fuss over anything DISTINCTIVE and VITAL about Jesus,

when what matters is how WE live, and trampoline jump?

Notice how (according to Bell) WE are the important point? How WE live?

Doctrine, schmoctrine, who cares about all those teachings and beliefs, otherwise known as what we as Christians hold to be "the truth" as spelled out in this source known as the Bible, that some may have heard of?



The entire New Testament, and especially crystal clear over, and over, and over, in the epistles of Paul, is our charge as Christians to boldly


PROCLAIM THE TRUTH of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.




Why then are emergents, McLaren and Bell highly visible examples, spending their lives on this "exciting" "mystery" of "seeking the truth," and never really having anything tangible to proclaim, because we can't really be sure of much of anything, and have to be obsessively concerned that any watered down nothing might still "offend someone?"


Why supposedly (other than to confuse lots of the easily confused!) talk about "trusting" or "following" someone you supposedly can't/won't ever really know or admit anything distinctive about, other than the need to start up "conversations?" ( That never conclude anything!)



Really quaint that Bell has a line or two about "trusting Jesus," when "Jesus" can be anything or not anything as anybody sees fit!

I daresay this isn't what the entire New Testament, and especially the passionate inspired word through Paul, is all about.



And for all the misleading confusion and deception by which these emergents are damaging people, I've no doubt our precious Lord Jesus Christ will have some stark things to share with them. Not that I personally would wish it on anyone. But the Gospels lay out very frankly what the Lord thinks of those who damage and deceive, especially when they could or should know better.
Well, like I've said, you hear what you want and have completely misinterpreted, and misrepresented Mr. Bell.
You seem to be unwilling to participate in any kind of productive dialogue (concerning the construction of your arguments, you seem to want to talk much more than you want to listen) and so I think it's better that we agree to disagree rather than bring anymore discord to this Body.

[Christy]

and so I think it's better that we agree to disagree rather than bring anymore discord to this Body.

What brings discord to the Body of Christ is apostasy, apostates AND their proponents.

This is how Rob Bell's beliefs, et al mimic the New Age. So are we to contend for the Faith, (sola fide) or are we to pat apostates on the back and tell them "it's okay to believe what you believe as long as you follow Jesus" which in fact could be another Jesus, a Jesus not of the Bible. The Christ of the New Age, a FALSE messiah. In short - The Antichrist.

(This particular post is POSTED IN LOVE - love for not wanting to see anyone being deceived and love for not wanting anyone to burn in eternal hell. The problem with today's world is this : They don't have the Fear of God in them. To meet Almighty God face-to-face is a very scary thought indeed when you are mere mortal man. And my motives are this : TO STAND UP FOR THE TRUTH which doesn't include half-baked truths, nor half-truths).

Jesus said - “Therefore everyone who hears these Words of Mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the Rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the Rock. But everyone who hears these Words of Mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:24-27)

Faith, according to Bell, is a trampoline with doctrine functioning as the springs. Springs are helpful but not the focal point. The problem with many Christians is that they are so wrapped up in the nature of the springs they can’t enjoy the real “point” of Christianity: the experience of jumping.

Bell compares these doctrinally minded people to masons who build their faith as a wall of bricks, each brick of doctrine carefully laid on top of the other. The problem with this view of faith, Bell believes, is that if you pull out one of the bricks, the whole wall collapses.

He's gone and destroyed biblical doctrine with one fell swoop. Welcome to the New Age.

Let me also say that Rob Bell does state he affirms “the historic Christian faith,” which he then defines vaguely. Bell postulates, “But if the whole faith falls apart when we reexamine and rethink one spring, then it wasn’t that strong in the first place, was it?” The problem we immediately confront is that in the postmodern mindset nothing can be stated absolutely which then rules out a priori something being strong in the first place. In this philosophy of relativism we are going to be caught up in “reexamining” and “rethinking” everything anyway. So one is left wondering, if this repainted Emergent gospel really is the “historic” faith Jesus taught, why would He have been crucified?

If this be the case we might as well throw out our Bibles too as they're give us ABSOLUTES. There's no relativism to be found in the Bible. Welcome to the New Age once again.

And this is why the Word of God in the Bible is of the utmost importance because it is in Holy Scripture that we are told God cannot change. “I, the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6). The absolute Truth is the LORD God Almighty–our Creator–has determined that the only way mankind may come into a relationship with Him is by His grace alone; through faith alone; in Christ alone. But there is something else here of vital importance which is very often over looked in regard to being forgiven of sin and thus rescued from an eternity in conscious torment in a literal place this Creator–Christ Jesus of Nazareth Himself–called Hell.

Bell's ministry, as well as that of the Emergent Church waters down the concept/biblical doctrine of hell. There's absolutely no Fear of God here.

God’s inerrant and infallible Word in Scripture puts forth with crystalline clarity that it is quite possible to follow the wrong Jesus and also tells us Satan has sent forth false ministers. Consider this from 2 Corinthians 11 – For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough (v.4). And further such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ (v.13). So here we see that there is indeed such a thing as a Jesus other than the One that the Apostles preached.

Sounds much like Rob Bell's ministry to me. Thanks, but really NO THANKS. Anyone "playing around" with this type of thing is asking for trouble. The Bible says we are to work out our salvation with great fear and trembling.

So what are we to do as one by one foundational truths of Christianity are systematically being attacked by other religions and unbelieving skeptics? I know as a pastor myself I don’t like conflict. But when an entire generation is being twisted through warped and toxic teaching like this from Bell I have no choice but to follow the command Christ has given to His pastors hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it (Titus 1:9). Well Rob, here let me tell you that I love the Biblical theology recovered by the Reformers and so I am telling you about it and inviting you to enjoy it with me.

It's God's wish that none should perish, but that all see the Truth that is the Bible and Jesus Christ. And likewise I have the same wish.

Excerpts taken from, where you can read the entire article:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/10/rob_bell_misjum.html

Here's a Biblical view of hell:

Luke 16:19-31:

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

[Biblenuggetlady]

Again, this thread has moved again to defending Bell. There are a number of threads on the Emergent Church. These are full of factual information for people to go back and look for information and excellent resources and links on, but we are not going to continue to allow threads to be turned into "defense of Rob Bell" threads. We have closed Bell threads in the past and will do so in the future.