forgiveness

[wannie]

There is no contradition, but if your interpretation seems to have a conflict, follow the words of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. He's the One who died and paid the price for your salvation.

[BlessedinHim]

I am still studying this out to see what is true and what is not true. Since what I have posted is from man, I am still finding error there. Things that dont quite add up. I have not yet settled this matter in my mind just yet. There is a couple of verses in Acts that would lead me to think that perhaps there is this little transitional gospel in between the age of Law and the age of Grace, but it has been brought back to my attention, a matter is not certain in the presence of only one witness, but at least 2 or 3 witnesses settles a matter.

Where there looks like there is a contradiction, I am sure it is only in our understanding, that it is incomplete and we dont yet have the full picture. Right now I am stuck in Acts 20 and there abouts.

[HeIsEnough]

It has been implied (although not specifically stated) in the thread on "Pauline Dispensationalism" that Paul's teaching on forgiveness contradicted Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

Do you think this is true?


I would add these as well...


Mark 3:27-29

27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation.



1 Timothy 6

1Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. 2And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. 3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

I don't really understand how Paul could be said to contradict Jesus' teachings.

This scripture:


Colossians 3

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Is also talking about us, born again believers who can forgive by God's power.

The same words Christ said could be said today under the gospel Paul preached about a man who refuses to forgive. There is no place for an unforgiving heart in any dispensation. Find a man today who refuses to forgive, and that same man will be in a wretched place under God's hand.

[Aliya]

Originally Posted by kenod
It has been implied (although not specifically stated) in the thread on "Pauline Dispensationalism" that Paul's teaching on forgiveness contradicted Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

Do you think this is true?

I have not read all the posts in that thread (and essentially none of the ones that are book chapters etc), so I don't know what post(s) in particular you're referring to. If they're mine, then I want to clarify a point, in case I have led anyone to think I am saying our Lord Jesus's own words should be ignored.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This is a whole-hearted truth for all times. God does not change - his nature is the same.

He has given different peoples/times different instructions throughout time, though. We are not to build an ark a Noah did, we are not to follow the Mosaic Law as the Jews did. I think we can all agree on those. Jesus is teaching JEWS ONLY in the gospels and all of those Jews live under the Law. (Matthew 10:5, Matthew 15:24-26). In the Gospels, there has not yet been any teaching on the concept of Faith Alone for salvation, and the concepts of being justified, sanctified, glorified and indwelt the moment we truly believed is not taught until Paul comes on the scene.

Since we are not Jews living under the Law, all of Jesus's words remain good teaching but we have to be careful about making them into doctrine during this age of grace. Jesus also kept the sabbath, worshiped in the Temple and kept the Holy Days, and told others to do likewise (Luke 17:14 etc). Paul tells us in Colossians 2:16 and Galatians 3 not to let the Judaizers try to make us keep the law. So is that a contradiction to Jesus's teaching? Only if they were each teaching these things at the same time, under the same set of rules (for lack of a better word). But we know they are not contradictions - we know that the 'rules' changed and we are incredibly blessed to live in the age of grace, being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ.

In grace, we are justifed by faith, not works (compare Romans 3:24 against James 2:24). I don't know how Jews were justified under the law in the OT - if it says, I haven't found it. . In the New Testament, James says by faith and works; Paul says by faith through grace and not by the law. So why do James and Paul disagree? My bibles indicate James was written quite early, possibly first of all the NT books - and that was pre-Paul, before the revelation of the gospel of the grace of God given to Paul, and the whole concept of the Body of Christ. James was teaching what Jesus taught him. He didn't know yet about Paul's teachings, because they had not yet been revealed.

There seems to be an argument that anyone who is preaching Grace is preaching license. That is not intended. I do not know how someone can be truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit and walking in faith, yet purposefully sinning because they know they are forgiven. That is appalling to consider.

[kenod]

Jesus obeyed the Law, but I do not belive that His teaching about how we should live can contradict what Paul taught. If this were so, then we would need to give a different meaning to Jesus' words to Nicodemus (Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3) because He was speaking to a Jew living under the Law.

There were words spoken by Jesus, and recorded in the Gospels, that would not be fully understood until God revealed the complete understanding of redemption through Paul.

I believe forgiveness of our sins is conditional - it is conditional on full repentance. Anyone who is born again by the Spirit of God, and has become a 'new creature', will forgive those who trespass against him/her.

[Sing4Him]

If in Matt 6, Jesus was speaking to unbelievers in the crowd, then when he said to forgive eachother or He wouldn't forgive-- this was STILL a time when people were under the Law.. so being unforgiving of your brother is a sin and Jesus had NOT died for sins, YET.

so there is no contradiction.. because

when the Holy Spirit spoke through Paul, Jesus died for sins, so when we don't forgive our brother, it is sin, but since Jesus already died for us, we are forgiven.

[Sing4Him]

See?

here:

And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and [from] Decapolis, and [from] Jerusalem, and [from] Judaea, and [from] beyond Jordan. Matt 4:25

and continued in the next chapter:

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: Matt 5:1


So, Jesus was addressing Many people.. Under the law.. as He had not died for sins yet..

[Sing4Him]

Also.. see, here in Chapter 5 we see Jesus telling people to pluck out their eye..

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


WHY? He is giving an example how depraved sinners are.

WHY was Jesus telling them this? Because he came to die on the cross in atonement for their sins!

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Matt 10:20

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven Matt 16:13-17

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man (believers!) according to his works. Matt 16:24

[kenod]

Also.. see, here in Chapter 5 we see Jesus telling people to pluck out their eye..

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


WHY? He is giving an example how depraved sinners are.

WHY was Jesus telling them this? Because he came to die on the cross in atonement for their sins!

It is quite possible that I may have misunderstood your point, but are you saying that these words are addressed to the Jews living under the Law and therefore do not have any application to Christians today?

I am sure we all agree that Jesus was speaking figuratively here, and the message is similar to that when He says" "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Simply put, nothing must come before God in our lives.

I believe that Jesus is speaking to me as much as He was to His immediate audience.

[wannie]

Also.. see, here in Chapter 5 we see Jesus telling people to pluck out their eye..

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I think Jesus was saying, "If you can't keep looking at pornography or other things, pluck your eye out. Losing your eyes is better than spending eternity in hell."

I think this was a way of telling us how very awful hell really is, and that the consequences of sin are so dreadful.