forgiveness

[paw]

What helps me to understand these things is Romans 7 where Paul speaks of our dual nature. Paul sins, we all sin. But as paul says, "It is not I who sins it is the sin that dwells within me."
The moment we are born again we receive a new nature, we are a new creation as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17. Our redemption is complete. God does not recognize our old nature, he sees us through the filter of Christs shed blood as spotless.
The gospel of grace that Paul proclaimed trancends the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus taught. Jesus was preaching to the Jews just as he instructed his disciples to do. Paul was teaching a mystery that that was unknown even by Jesus disciples.
As far as the issue of forgiveness forgiveness is concerned, the cross settled that. The sin of unforgiveness was paid for on the cross, past present and future. As true believers when we are unforgiving we break fellowship with God. Our relationship never changes, we will forever be His child. Repentance restores fellowship when our old nature sins.
I think sometimes we forget what the cross accomplished and argue over things that should be settled by now.

[RefinedbyFire]

Christ's teaching showed full, complete righteousness -- which involved even undeserved forgiveness, and 70 x 7 forgiveness.

So, why would Paul, who was a persecutor/murderer, and mysteriously halted on a road of destruction by Christ, called out of the world, shown perfect, absolute grace and forgiveness, turn around and teach a "different forgiveness?" That doesn't make sense at all.

Sometimes, I feel like theologians examine Scripture so deeply, they start "reading between lines" that are not really there.

[kenod]

Also.. see, here in Chapter 5 we see Jesus telling people to pluck out their eye..



I think Jesus was saying, "If you can't keep looking at pornography or other things, pluck your eye out. Losing your eyes is better than spending eternity in hell."

A lot of advertisements are indecent, and the way some people dress in public is meant to provoke lust ... probably just as effective to turn your head, as pluck out your eye!

I think this was a way of telling us how very awful hell really is, and that the consequences of sin are so dreadful.

:nod

[kenod]

I'm convinced that those who say Jesus and Paul did not teach the same thing about forgiveness either do not understand what Jesus said, or they do not understand what Paul said. They harmonize perfectly.

If we have received the Spirit of Christ, we will forgive others because that is our new nature.
If we do not forgive others, we have not yet received the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)

[wannie]

I'm convinced that those who say Jesus and Paul did not teach the same thing about forgiveness either do not understand what Jesus said, or they do not understand what Paul said. They harm]onize perfectly.

If we have received the Spirit of Christ, we will forgive others because that is our new nature.
If we do not forgive others, we have not yet received the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)


Well stated!!!!!!

There is one Heaven. When we get there, there will be no crossing the street to avoid each other. Either we personally forgive EVERYONE who has ever harmed us, and we pray that God will forgive us for every occasion that we have harmed someone else, or we won't be allowed there. There will be NO HATE IN HEAVEN.

[paw]

[QUOTE=kenod;105811]I'm convinced that those who say Jesus and Paul did not teach the same thing about forgiveness either do not understand what Jesus said, or they do not understand what Paul said. They harmonize perfectly.

If we have received the Spirit of Christ, we will forgive others because that is our new nature.
If we do not forgive others, we have not yet received the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)[/QUOTE

If what you say is true then unforgiveness is the unpardonable sin. It is not our new nature that sins, it is our old nature as Paul explains in Romans 7:15-17. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself (new nature) who does it, but it is the sin living in me (old nature).

I think we can agree that unforgiveness is a sin. If that is true did not Christ pay the penalty for that sin on the cross? To say that if someone did something extreamely horrific to you or someone in your family and you were having difficulty forgiving that person would that mean that you do not have the spirit of Christ?

AS believers we all struggle with sin as long as we are still in the body. The only sin that God cannot forgive is unbelief.

[kenod]

If what you say is true then unforgiveness is the unpardonable sin. It is not our new nature that sins, it is our old nature as Paul explains in Romans 7:15-17. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself (new nature) who does it, but it is the sin living in me (old nature).

I think we can agree that unforgiveness is a sin. If that is true did not Christ pay the penalty for that sin on the cross? To say that if someone did something extreamely horrific to you or someone in your family and you were having difficulty forgiving that person would that mean that you do not have the spirit of Christ?

AS believers we all struggle with sin as long as we are still in the body. The only sin that God cannot forgive is unbelief.

We may be coming at this from slightly different angles. Let me give an example to try to explain how I see it.

If a man is living in a homosexual relationship, and he becomes a Christian, he will change his lifestyle - maybe not immediately, but he will change. There is a difference between being tempted and giving in to temptation, and continuing to wilfully live in sin.

If a person is having difficulty in forgiving, then I would say they are still on the right track if in their heart they desire to be forgiving.

If our nature (the desire of our heart) does not change, then we have not been born again.

[graceforme]

It has been implied (although not specifically stated) in the thread on "Pauline Dispensationalism" that Paul's teaching on forgiveness contradicted Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

Do you think this is true?

Mat 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mark 11:25-26
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


I haven't read the replies to this original post, so if I'm copying someone else, please forgive - it wasn't intentional.

Keep in mind that the four gospels fall under Old Testament teaching. Hebrews says that a testament is of no value until after the death of the testator - Christ was killed at the end of each gospel account. Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4) and taught under the law. Grace had not yet been presented to the Gentile nation.

Here's my thought: If God saved me, and I don' forgive someone else of their transgression, then is God going to "take away" my salvation? I don't think so. Does God desire that I can forgive those who do me wrong? Sure He does! Why? Because unforgiveness of others will eat away at me and interfere with my spiritual growth and walk with the Lord. And I will probably become bitter and sour. I won't necessarily be walking in God's will, but I'll still be saved.

Right division of God's Word helps make all these things clearer to us, and will prevent us from taking verses out of context.

God Bless.

[Sing4Him]

Here's my thought: If God saved me, and I don' forgive someone else of their transgression, then is God going to "take away" my salvation? I don't think so. Does God desire that I can forgive those who do me wrong? Sure He does! Why? Because unforgiveness of others will eat away at me and interfere with my spiritual growth and walk with the Lord. And I will probably become bitter and sour. I won't necessarily be walking in God's will, but I'll still be saved.

Right division of God's Word helps make all these things clearer to us, and will prevent us from taking verses out of context

amen! Jesus has not yet been crucified when he spoke. He was showing them He was Savior and the need for their sins to be atoned for by His eventual shed blood. Jesus was revealing His Sonship.

Here the Holy Spirit Speaking through Paul states:
For since by man (Adam) came death, by man (Jesus Christ, Son of God) came also the resurrection of the dead. (eternal life!) 1 Cor. 15:21

[paw]

Graceforme and Sing4 him

Amen