forgiveness

[kenod]

It has been implied (although not specifically stated) in the thread on "Pauline Dispensationalism" that Paul's teaching on forgiveness contradicted Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

Do you think this is true?

Mat 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mark 11:25-26
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

[BlessedinHim]

What verses would contradict these?

[kenod]

What verses would contradict these?

I am trying to isolate a specific example of the type of argument being made by some in the "Pauline Dispensationalism" thread.

C. I. Scofield, in his notes on Mat 6:12 ("And forgive us our debts as we forgive others") says this:
"This is legal ground. Cf Eph 4:32, which is grace. Under law forgiveness is conditioned upon a like spirit in us; under grace we are forgiven for Christ's sake, and exhorted to forgive because we have been forgiven"
I do not believe that there are two Gospels, and I do believe that all Scripture must harmonize. However, there seems to be an understanding that renders much of Jesus' teaching in the Gospels to be not applicable to Christians today.

As one poster in PD commented: "... there was a Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ and the apostles preached to Israel, and a Gospel of Grace that Paul preaches to us Gentiles ...".

With regard to the Sermon on the Mount, another poster said: "It has a lot of great teaching, but for doctrine to hang your hat on, it is primarily for the Jews who will enter the Millennial Kingdom."

Referring to the Beatitudes, this so-called discrepancy between Jesus' teaching and Paul's teaching, is described in PD: post 147 (http://rr-bb.com/showpost.php?p=87512&postcount=147)

So my question is - is there really a conflict between Jesus' teaching on forgiveness and Paul's teaching on forgiveness?

[CountryBumpkin]

It has been implied (although not specifically stated) in the thread on "Pauline Dispensationalism" that Paul's teaching on forgiveness contradicted Jesus' teaching on forgiveness.

Do you think this is true?

Mat 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mark 11:25-26
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

How many of us have found it sometimes very difficult to forgive others who have hurt us; how many of us have not forgiven others and still have unforgivenness in our hearts? Yet according to these scriptures it means that God will therefore not forgive us - which seems to me a condition. However in the age of grace we are forgiven, totally, no matter what - no condition.

[kenod]

How many of us have found it sometimes very difficult to forgive others who have hurt us; how many of us have not forgiven others and still have unforgivenness in our hearts? Yet according to these scriptures it means that God will therefore not forgive us - which seems to me a condition. However in the age of grace we are forgiven, totally, no matter what - no condition.

Would you call "repentance" a condition?

And if we still have unforgiveness in our hearts, have we fully repented?

[wannie]

Jesus meant what He said.

[kenod]

Jesus meant what He said.

:nod

[BlessedinHim]

there is a kingdom gospel and the gospel of grace. But, at the same time, all scripture is given for inspiration and instruction. No one had given scripture, and as you could see in there, I was searching out the book of acts for this double gospel, I quit before I would have gotten to it, but someone else put the verses in there. It is true. It is in the post I posted last, quoting aliya and carollyn. carollyn posted the scripture asking a question.

the law tells what God wants of us as far as how He would like us to live. He came and died because He knew we couldnt do that. Could doing our best because of His grace be the works, and by trying to do our best, we do not live by the law, as it expresses legalism, but by its example of what God would prefer, we do the best we can out of gratitude for the grace and salvation. so we dont live by the law, but use the law as an example?

[jumbo]

hi, if its about performing the act off forgiveness and finding it dificult too truely aply in our lives then as paul has said in scripture : i know that in myself (the flesh) there is no good thing our sinful nature comprising the fruits off it as oposed too the new fruit we are given through the holy spirit who now lives in us making us put off the old man and putting on the new man through our lord jesus christ, hence its the lord who transforms our nature and he that enables us too love and forgive the unlovable.: an example off carrying out the act off gods forgiveness too others is in that dear servant off the lord corrie ten boon who left us a true living example off how we do in truth forgive others there tresspasses against us . a ss soldier in the nazi concentration she had been in along with her whole family and who committed grevious horrible crimes in the camp that we can only imagine ,aproached corrie many yrs later in a gospel meeting held forth his hand and confessed his faith in the lord and asked corrie would she forgive him his crimes against her and her whole family well corrie admitted she was automatically filled with all the horrible memorys from the camp and what she had herself witness this man do ,she became so full off hate that that verse came into her mind for if we forgive men not their tresspasses against us then neither will god forgive us our tresspasses against him and here was the loving answer corrie cried and said lord i cannot but you can enable me please fill me with your love and the lord immediately flooded her with his love and immediately the hate was gone and she reached forth her hand and said brother i forgive you.
that lesson speaks volumes too each and all off us today in ourselves we can do no good thing but in the lord jesus christ we can do all things too god be given all the glory for ever and ever amen .god bless

[CarolLyn]

Mat 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

What verses would contradict these?

Eph. 4: 32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col. 2: 13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I had never heard of Pauline Dispensationalism before blessedinhim posted the thread. But it is because of verses like this which seem to contradict what Paul's epistles say that I am (prayerfully) looking into this point of view to see if it is valid or not. I have always been told that "Everything in the Bible is for us but not everything in the Bible is about us." :idunno