Question...

[Saved by Grace_06]

blessedinhim

SBG06 if God allowed it to happen, He didnt make it happen. He allows the natural course of events, that is why sometimes there are miracles.

I respectfully disagree. God did not just fix certian laws and thus have life follow or be guided by certian laws. Rather, God is at the core of everything and upholds everything by his word. I have already posted scripture to back up my claims. Also - and please get this - God's allowing something to happen and God's making something occur through his allowing, isn't the same as God doing it himself. Here's what I mean exactly: God allowing Jesus to be totured, beaten, and nailed to a cross is the same as God making it to happen (Acts 2:23 Acts 4:27-28). But, in making it to happen, God isn't guilty of sin because he did not do the act, but instead used evil men as means to bring about the act, which was his will in the first place.

and I have an off topic question for you, why do you seem to enjoy circular arguments? First you say he governs, then you say he makes, then you say he allows.

There's no distinction in the words. Rather, the words are used interchangeable in scripture. God governing is the same as God making and allowing. Here's another good example:

"I form light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I am the LORD, who does all these things." - Isa 45:7

God "making" of peace is the same as his allowing of peace (since peace isn't given unless he "allows" it), and God's "allowing" of peace is the same as God's govenerning peace (since it is he who governs all things). By the way, I want to say again as to not cause you to misunderstand me. God is not evil, nor is he the author of evil, nor is there evil in him. "God is light and in him there is no darkness" (1John 1:5). The scripture oftens speaks of God's "allowing" as his "doing" or "making." Therefore, when it says "I 'make' evil," it is not saying God creates people or things evil. God makes everything good, and we do the evil. But, "when we do evil" we do it by his premission, since nothing ever occurs apart from his will. This, again, is why the scriptures speak of God's "making" and "allowing" in the same sense.

and more you are a puppet you are not a puppet calvinist slant. I mean this in the best way, but you cannot have it both ways. Either you think we are puppets, or you dont think we are puppets.

I believe the scriptures teach that man is autonomous in that he has a will to do whatever he wants. Yet, he can never do more than the Sovereign God allows. In other words, just like Satan has to get permission from God to do anything at all, man isn't able to do anymore than God permits. For instance: Some people want to fly and go back in time. God hasn't permitted it, therefore it will never be.

[Saved by Grace_06]

This is what I believe as well. I do believe that God is capable of interceding at any time, but I don't believe He chooses to do so at all times. I imagine there is an ultimate plan and that, in the larger scheme of things, all things always work out in a manner consistent with God's plan and for the greater good (whether we can understand it or not) - but this doesnt meant that God participates actively in everything we do (like my choosing these words at this moment in time in this reply). I do believe in God's ultimate soverignty, so if it His will to intervene, He can and and will. To SBG's point, there clearly are scriptures that speak to God's participation in all things, but there are scriptural verses that also speak of man's choices and actions. Its one of the great debates/quagmires of scripture.

Regards,


I do not seperate man's will and responsiblity from God's sovereignity. Rather, I see them as two sides of the same coin. I see that God in his sovereignty uses man's choices to play apart of his greater plan. In other words, he uses our choices as means to bring about his glorious ends. For instance: We meant a thing like the fall for evil, but God allowed it for a greater Good, insomuch that he foreordain (God's sovereignty) that Christ be slained by evil men (men's choice), so that God may be glorified in his forgiveness of hell deservering men (greater good).

[jumbo]

hi its a very interesting topic ,me personally i asked the lord to come into my heart when i was in primary 7 school but i never led my life fully regrettably in the lords direction for my life for example as a new christian i still ran about with my old friends and over and over again while reading the bible it said be not asosiated with unbelievers ,be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers because bad asosiations corrupt good manners :result= i listned but did not obey and i found my self compromised and as a result my life for a short time till i obeyed eventually took a diferent direction for the worse its like the word says stay on the good path and choose life obviously straying from this course has the opisite consequences. that is only one example there are many more throughout my life and i guess more too come but seems too me through bitter expierience that if we whole heartly take gods word to our hearts and obey then too stay on the good road off life means making personal decisions if we love the lord we will keep his word regarding diferent situations we come up against in each off our lives .on hindsight for me personally as i look back over my own life i can clearly see that if i had have totaly listned to gods word in diferent situatons then without a doubt my life would have been completely diferent than today and richer in my spiritual walk, i lost a good 20yrs off walking with the lord because i strayed and i knew regettably i could never get them back but only have sorrow for my sins, but even so one verse i believe the lord strengthned me with was that he would give me back the yrs that the locust had eaten and its a promise he has more than i could possibly have imagined fulfilled in my life. the joy the lord gives absolutedly the world cannot come close too provding as paul wrote i consider everything the world offers as dung in comparrision to knowing the lord. amen god bless

[Hootmon]

Hey, we are having pasta for dinner too. I expect that God is in control, as He set up the laws which govern how water and temperature in combination provide a reaction.That's kind of what I mean.

God set up and sustains the rules/laws of how 'nature' works, like how water behaves when it boils. Saying that He 'ordains every bubble' in my pot of boiling water is overstating the situation, IMO. As if God is interested in whether or not bubble number 21762 pops 1.72 inches from the edge of the pot or 2.02 inches from the center.

...and before someone says something about 'numbering the hairs'... Remember that by doing so you are comparing people to boiling water...

[Hootmon]

God didn't just invent nature and let nature take its course to govern over the world and us... That isnt what I said.


God is personal and is in total control of everything.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father." --Matt 10:29 That's what I mean about over-applying Scripture. Life forms (and people in particular) are obviously valued more highly by God.


What's the significance of that? If something as small as a bird, in the deepest and darkest parts of the Brazilian jungles, does not occur apart from God's will, what's to stop God from controlling the molecular structure of your boiling pan to keep it over control? Answer: ALL things, from the minutes molecule, to the greatest catastrophe, is under the control of the uncreated Creator, Almighty God. He's that BIG!There is nothing to 'stop God', but Id like to have some Scripture that actually shows He cares about ordinary trivialities like bubbles in boiling water before declaring it doctrine.

[Cd4u_2]

My pastor once told me about how an atom bomb can corrupt the tiniest molecules or something similiar to that (I can't remember his exact words) . He said that if God have ever let go instead of holding us together, we could be corrupted like an atom bomb. The law of nature is governed by God.

[Saved by Grace_06]

There is nothing to 'stop God', but Id like to have some Scripture that actually shows He cares about ordinary trivialities like bubbles in boiling water before declaring it doctrine.

How often do you read the Psalms? Nothing is trival to God. If you are his, he loves you and cares about you in such a way that I cannot even to express in my own written words. In fact, I do not even understand his love or why he cares so much. For this reason, I'll just post scripture:

You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it. Psa 139:2-6

Believe the bible, bro. If you are his, God cares for you insomuch that the very hairs on your head are numbered (Matt 10:30), and he will always work out all things, even bad things, for your good in the end (Romans 8:30). Again, nothing ever ever ever...ever, ever, ever, happens apart from God's will, and all things, from the smallest to the greats are governed by God's rule (Matt 10:29). That should drive you to worship!

[Saved by Grace_06]

My pastor once told me about how an atom bomb can corrupt the tiniest molecules or something similiar to that (I can't remember his exact words) . He said that if God have ever let go instead of holding us together, we could be corrupted like an atom bomb. The law of nature is governed by God.

Amen! :thumb

There's no rouge atoms anywhere. All things are ruled and governed by God. That's amazing stuff!

[Leialoha]

That's kind of what I mean.

God set up and sustains the rules/laws of how 'nature' works, like how water behaves when it boils. Saying that He 'ordains every bubble' in my pot of boiling water is overstating the situation, IMO. As if God is interested in whether or not bubble number 21762 pops 1.72 inches from the edge of the pot or 2.02 inches from the center.

...and before someone says something about 'numbering the hairs'... Remember that by doing so you are comparing people to boiling water...

I'm guessing that it takes practically no effort for God to know every bubble and when it pops. Perhaps God just knows everything? I don't think He lovingly looks at the bubbles. :scratch

Perhaps a waste of my time to think about God and bubbles for more time than this....:lol2

[HeIsEnough]

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD."--Proverb 16:33


Is there anything that isn't governed by God?

Everything of course, except where He decides to sift man and let man discover for himself, like here:


2 Chronicles 32

30 It was Hezekiah who blocked the upper outlet of the Gihon spring and channeled the water down to the west side of the City of David. He succeeded in everything he undertook. 31 But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart.

Or here, when God shows His true heart in how He cares for all men, as we should as well.


Jonah 4

10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"

He governs by making sure He calls every man to account, that every man should turn to Him and live, lest He leave them be and they would surely not turn to Him and live. God is good, all the time.