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hegavemearoc
September 13th, 2010, 01:38 AM
Yes Amen. Well done and thankyou! :hug


The Rapture of the Church (http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/rapture.htm)

The Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:

There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the
resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the
rapture comes. There is no debate that Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 teach on the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power after the tribulation. Neither of those chapters speak of the rapture, nor of a resurrection, nor of a trumpet blast.

http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/rapture.htmAgain, thanks so much...so very encouraging...WOW! Thank you Lord!:yeah Oh yeah, and you too Buzzardhut:lol2

TwinklingOfanEye
September 13th, 2010, 02:19 AM
How 'bout this?
Found it on some site.
Read all the way thru, see what you all think about this:

************************************************** ************************

Why "He that letteth" CAN'T Be Church or Spirit

Here is a simple argument as to why "He that letteth" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 CANNOT be the Church or the Holy Spirit.

Let us look at the Scriptures as written, then interpolate the words "Church/Spirit" into them and we will reveal an interesting chronological contradiction.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Now, let's take and do some interpolation to verses 2,3,7 and 8...


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only THE CHURCH/SPIRIT will let, until THE CHURCH/SPIRIT be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Verses 2-3 say the day of Christ (2nd Coming) doesn't occur until there is a falling away and then the son of perdition ("that Wicked" from verse 8) is revealed. Now, how can this be if "he that letteth" is the Church/Spirit since verses 7 and 8 say that "he that letteth" is removed BEFORE "that Wicked" is revealed?

If you accept the dispensational, pre-trib doctrine you must read 2 Corinthians 2 thusly:

"The rapture doesn't happen until after a great falling away and the man of sin is revealed, however the man of sin is not revealed until after the rapture."

It just doesn't make sense does it?



Quote:For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV)


For those who are skilled in the Greek text, "taken out of the way" means "comes out of the midst" or "arise out of the midst" or even "appear out of the midst."


Quote:For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst. (2 Thessalonians 2:7 LITV)


This verse is not talking about the Church being snatched away, it is talking about the man of sin appearing. The very next verse backs this up. Here is verse 7 & 8 in the Literal Translation Version.

Quote:For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst. And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 LITV)


Before the man of sin is revealed, he must first appear. The man of sin is not just going to pop out of thin air, he will appear out of the midst, then he will be revealed, and the Lord will destroy him as it was prophesied aforetime.


The phrase "he who letteth" simply means that the wicked one restrains his coming; NOT that something else restrains his appearing.

Also, even if the text means that something is restraining the appearing of the wicked one, the oldest exegetes believed that the one who restrains was the Roman Empire; and once the Roman Empire was taken out of the way it would lead the way to the rise of the wicked one.

It was not until the mid-1800s that anyone equated "he who letteth" with the church and/or the Spirit.

Simple fact is, if the Spirit is taken away from the earth before the tribulation, then by what are people saved during the tribulation? If someone says anything other than Acts 2:38, then they are preaching a gospel beyond what the apostles taught!


The "he" cannot be the Church. The Church is a bride, not a "he."

************************************************** ************

:candle Does that make sense? Seems like it does to me..:idunno

james46888
September 13th, 2010, 02:58 AM
Here is a simple argument as to why "He that letteth" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 CANNOT be the Church or the Holy Spirit.


Pre-tribulationalism doesn't rise or fall on whether the restrainer is the H. Spirit. For example, I am pre-trib and yet I believe the restrainer is human government (as does Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who I understand is extremely well-respected on this forum).




Verses 2-3 say the day of Christ (2nd Coming) doesn't occur until there is a falling away and then the son of perdition ("that Wicked" from verse 8) is revealed. Now, how can this be if "he that letteth" is the Church/Spirit since verses 7 and 8 say that "he that letteth" is removed BEFORE "that Wicked" is revealed?



The term Day of the Lord (not "Day of Christ" which is a mistransltion) refers to the Tribulation not the rapture



The phrase "he who letteth" simply means that the wicked one restrains his coming; NOT that something else restrains his appearing.


You (well, the author of the article to be more precise) would have to name some scholars who feel the Greek can be read that way for me to take that position seriously.



Simple fact is, if the Spirit is taken away from the earth before the tribulation, then by what are people saved during the tribulation? If someone says anything other than Acts 2:38, then they are preaching a gospel beyond what the apostles taught!



When pre-tribbers teach that the Spirit is removed, they are not saying He is removed from the earth - He will still be here saving people - but, rather, they feel He will be removed from His (supposed) present role of restraining lawlessness.

james46888
September 13th, 2010, 04:38 AM
It was not until the mid-1800s that anyone equated "he who letteth" with the church and/or the Spirit.


Not quite true. John Chrysostom wrote that “some interpret this of the grace of the Spirit, but others of the Roman Empire, and this is my own preference. Why? Because, if Paul had meant the Spirit, he would have said so plainly and not obscurely, . . . but because he meant the Roman Empire, he naturally glanced at it, speaking covertly and darkly. . . . So . . . when the Roman Empire is out of the way, then he [Antichrist] will come” (Fourth Homily on 2 Thessalonians).


So, although Chrysostom saw the Roman government as the restrainer, he notes that some Christians at the time believed it was the Spirit.

TwinklingOfanEye
September 14th, 2010, 07:19 PM
Pre-tribulationalism doesn't rise or fall on whether the restrainer is the H. Spirit. For example, I am pre-trib and yet I believe the restrainer is human government (as does Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who I understand is extremely well-respected on this forum).
Yeah? Could very well be.
I also read that the restrainer could be Micheal the Archangel, and they give some versus in Daniel (which i dont know off-hand) to prove it.
What about that theory? :candle





The term Day of the Lord (not "Day of Christ" which is a mistransltion) refers to the Tribulation not the rapture.
You see that's what i was worried about. :lol2 First off, how do you know this? Because of the original Greek? Or the contents of the scripture? :scratch

And is that whole verse regarding AFTER the tribulation? Because nothing is mentioned of a tribulation there..:candle




You (well, the author of the article to be more precise) would have to name some scholars who feel the Greek can be read that way for me to take that position seriously.
Yeah...:sad





Not if Paul had meant the Spirit, he would have said so plainly and not obscurely
Thats exactly what I was thinking. :lol2 :hat



but because he meant the Roman Empire, he naturally glanced at it, speaking covertly and darkly. . . . So . . . when the Roman Empire is out of the way, then he [Antichrist] will come” (Fourth Homily on 2 Thessalonians).

After the rapture or before? :candle



So, although Chrysostom saw the Roman government as the restrainer, he notes that some Christians at the time believed it was the Spirit.
Ah, okay.

james46888
September 14th, 2010, 08:14 PM
I also read that the restrainer could be Micheal the Archangel, and they give some versus in Daniel (which i dont know off-hand) to prove it.
What about that theory? :candle


The verse is Daniel 12:1 where Michael "stands up," and proponents of that theory interpret that to mean he stands aside. Personally I think the theory is very possible (more so than the H. Spirit view), but the reasons I don't accept it at present are as follows: 1) I think government restraining lawlessness is more clear in Scripture; 2) Michael fights on behalf of Israel and protects her from enemies as opposed to restraining lawlessness in general.




You see that's what i was worried about. :lol2 First off, how do you know this? Because of the original Greek? Or the contents of the scripture? :scratch

The original Greek manuscripts say "Day of the Lord" ["kurios" (lord) not "christos" (christ)], and the term Day of the Lord is used throughout the rest of Scripture to refer to the tribulation.



And is that whole verse regarding AFTER the tribulation? Because nothing is mentioned of a tribulation there..:candle

Not quite sure what you're asking there. The Thessalonians were experiencing persecution and it seems they wrongly assumed this was the tribulation. Paul wrote to correct that view.




After the rapture or before? :candle

Well, I was quoting Chrysostom's view there. My own view is that what 2 Thess is saying is that the antichrist cannot go into the temple and declare his deity - an event that happens half way through the trib - until the restrainer is removed. In accord with Fruchtenbaum's view, I take it this happens just before the mid-trib and during the war between the antichrist and the kings of the north and south in Daniel 11. As to if the antichrist will come on the scene before the rapture or not, I really don't know.

TwinklingOfanEye
September 14th, 2010, 09:24 PM
The verse is Daniel 12:1 where Michael "stands up," and proponents of that theory interpret that to mean he stands aside. Personally I think the theory is very possible (more so than the H. Spirit view), but the reasons I don't accept it at present are as follows: 1) I think government restraining lawlessness is more clear in Scripture; 2) Michael fights on behalf of Israel and protects her from enemies as opposed to restraining lawlessness in general.
Yes! you got the verse! Ah, i see...true..true..perhaps..




The original Greek manuscripts say "Day of the Lord" ["kurios" (lord) not "christos" (christ)], and the term Day of the Lord is used throughout the rest of Scripture to refer to the tribulation.
Yes and amen!



Not quite sure what you're asking there. The Thessalonians were experiencing persecution and it seems they wrongly assumed this was the tribulation. Paul wrote to correct that view.
Got it. :hat



Well, I was quoting Chrysostom's view there. My own view is that what 2 Thess is saying is that the antichrist cannot go into the temple and declare his deity - an event that happens half way through the trib - until the restrainer is removed. In accord with Fruchtenbaum's view, I take it this happens just before the mid-trib and during the war between the antichrist and the kings of the north and south in Daniel 11. As to if the antichrist will come on the scene before the rapture or not, I really don't know.



So far, this is what I am hearing on these versus..

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (King James Version)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him..

Is that the Rapture? Since they were worried the Rapture already happened and that they were in the Tribulation, right? :scratch


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Mistranslation alert: It really means, 'The Day of The Lord' - aka The Tribulation.) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (The Day of the Lord' aka The Tribulation) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, (The Apostacy?...I mean..are we talking before the rapture? Or after the rapture? Or during the tribulation?....or what? ) :scratch

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (The Roman Empire, The Government, Michael the Archangle?)

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (This has got to mean the people that are left to experience the tribulation, not us, the church. )

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Yeah, not us. Thats why they are being damned. We as saved born-again believers wont be damned. Great proof for pre-trib. :hat


But, like you said...



As to if the antichrist will come on the scene before the rapture or not, I really don't know.
I noticed that too, it doesnt really say. But it kinda does indirectly. Because Paul is explaining what will happen during the tribulation, and the revealing of the AC was part of all that. So you would think, the rapture would come before, right? :candle

Why are these versus so difficult??:panic Because we are only reading a one sided letter, that's why. :doh :lol2

james46888
September 15th, 2010, 09:48 AM
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (King James Version)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him..

Is that the Rapture? Since they were worried the Rapture already happened and that they were in the Tribulation, right? :scratch


I think so, although there are some pre-tribbers who think it refers to His return to earth to rule. They were not worried that the rapture had happened IMO but, rather, because they (wrongly) thought the tribulation had began, they felt Paul had mistaught them since he had promised the rapture would occur before the trib.




3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (The Day of the Lord' aka The Tribulation) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, (The Apostacy?...I mean..are we talking before the rapture? Or after the rapture? Or during the tribulation?....or what? ) :scratch

All the verse states is that the apostasy will come before the trib. It doesn't say whether it'll come before the rapture or not.



11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (This has got to mean the people that are left to experience the tribulation, not us, the church. )

Yep :)




I noticed that too, it doesnt really say. But it kinda does indirectly. Because Paul is explaining what will happen during the tribulation, and the revealing of the AC was part of all that. So you would think, the rapture would come before, right? :candle


Well, there seem to be two revealings: One happens before the Trib starts (verse 3). This is presumably a revealing of his identity to Christians. Maybe they figure this out by calculating the number of his name (666) and also because they see him rise to power over a world government. The revealing of verse 8, in contrast, is at the mid-point of the trib where he goes into the temple and declares his deity.



Why are these versus so difficult??:panic Because we are only reading a one sided letter, that's why. :doh :lol2

Ha Ha. I would have put a "laughoutloud" icon in response but being relatively new here I don't how :) (I know how to do a smiley face though)

TwinklingOfanEye
September 15th, 2010, 05:55 PM
I think so, although there are some pre-tribbers who think it refers to His return to earth to rule. They were not worried that the rapture had happened IMO but, rather, because they (wrongly) thought the tribulation had began, they felt Paul had mistaught them since he had promised the rapture would occur before the trib.
Yes, because they were afraid the rapture had happened and that they were already in the tribulation. Remember, they were already going thru hardships. (I read that part on another site) ..and so thats why they were so worried that they didnt go up in the rapture. Yes? No? :candle



Well, there seem to be two revealings: One happens before the Trib starts (verse 3).
How so before? :scratch



This is presumably a revealing of his identity to Christians. Maybe they figure this out by calculating the number of his name (666) and also because they see him rise to power over a world government. The revealing of verse 8, in contrast, is at the mid-point of the trib where he goes into the temple and declares his deity.
:thinking

Why is it that so many Christians including ones at this forum who believe in pre-trib, all seem to believe that we will not know who the AC is? What versus are they getting that idea from? :candle





Ha Ha. I would have put a "laughoutloud" icon in response but being relatively new here I don't how :) (I know how to do a smiley face though)
You dont see smilies on the right hand side there?

james46888
September 15th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Yes, because they were afraid the rapture had happened and that they were already in the tribulation. Remember, they were already going thru hardships. (I read that part on another site) ..and so thats why they were so worried that they didnt go up in the rapture. Yes? No? :candle


I don't think it was because they thought they'd missed the rapture, since if such an event occurred it would, I guess, have been all too obvious to them. What I think is that they had been taught pre-tribulationalism by Paul, but because the Trib had started - or so they wrongly thought - they felt he had mistaught them and were upset that it now seem they'd have to go through the Trib



How so before? :scratch

Well, as I said, I guess his identity gets revealed to Christians before the Trib in one of two ways: Maybe they figure this out by calculating the number of his name (666) and also because they see him rise to power over a world government. The revealing of verse 8, in contrast, is at the mid-point of the trib where he goes into the temple and declares his deity.



Why is it that so many Christians including ones at this forum who believe in pre-trib, all seem to believe that we will not know who the AC is? What versus are they getting that idea from? :candle

Not sure. :scratch [yes, I managed it! :)]




You dont see smilies on the right hand side there?

:doh on my part. I was looking at the icons at the bottom of the screen but when I tried to click on them it didn't put the icon in the body of the message, but rather it would put it at the start of the message. So, because it didn't work the first few times I tried I sort of gave up and assumed the icons on the right hand side were just the same thing:lol2