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acceptedintheBeloved
February 14th, 2011, 11:09 PM
The Holy Spirit isn't "removed" from the earth, His "restraining work" is lifted at that time.

The Holy Spirit (being God) is always present. But His work on the earth will function more like it did in the Old Testament... when the Holy Spirit "came upon" people... the Spirit will be "poured out upon" (as opposed to "indwelling" and "sealed within" believers as in this age of Grace). Joel 2:28-32 describes that time period (in the trib), which was "partially fulfilled" (if you will) on Pentecost in Acts 2:14-21... Notice how not ALL of it was fulfilled back then. It will be, during the future trib. The Spirit will be very active, in that way. :hat

Chris
February 14th, 2011, 11:25 PM
ME-
Compare the Church to Enoch (who was "translated that he should not see death," BEFORE the judgment of the flood) and the trib saints to Noah, preserved through the flood judgment (like in the trib).

HIM-
How do these "trib saints" become saints if the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth?

They will still need to believe in Jesus for salvation, but things will revert to OT type salvation. Grace thru faith is for the church, the trib saints will have to endure and work at their faith and possibly be martyred for coming to faith in Jesus.

Chris
February 14th, 2011, 11:26 PM
The Holy Spirit isn't "removed" from the earth, His "restraining work" is lifted at that time.

The Holy Spirit (being God) is always present. But His work on the earth will function more like it did in the Old Testament... when the Holy Spirit "came upon" people... the Spirit will be "poured out upon" (as opposed to "indwelling" and "sealed within" believers as in this age of Grace). Joel 2:28-32 describes that time period (in the trib), which was "partially fulfilled" (if you will) on Pentecost in Acts 2:14-21... Notice how not ALL of it was fulfilled back then. It will be, during the future trib. The Spirit will be very active, in that way. :hat

Yep.

Buzzardhut
February 15th, 2011, 12:03 AM
ME-
Compare the Church to Enoch (who was "translated that he should not see death," BEFORE the judgment of the flood) and the trib saints to Noah, preserved through the flood judgment (like in the trib).

HIM-
How do these "trib saints" become saints if the Holy Spirit is no longer on the earth?

the Holy Spirit is not removed, God is omnipresent, only the church (the Holy Spirit retrains sin through the church) is removed, the Holy Spirit remains to save others

scott00049
February 15th, 2011, 03:17 AM
dittohead,

This is the best advice i can give you since people like that won't be convinced. Paul said it best when writing to Timothy.

1 Timothy 1:3-7:

Warnings against False Teachings
3 When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth. 4 Donít let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations,[a] which donít help people live a life of faith in God.[b]
5 The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith. 6 But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions. 7 They want to be known as teachers of the law of Moses, but they donít know what they are talking about, even though they speak so confidently.

Scott

bubbaganoosh
February 20th, 2011, 12:41 PM
i've often wondered about certain things that give us clues as to when the rapture may occur in relation to the 83/17 battle / the gog battle / the tribulation.

do we agree that the generation witnessing the rebirth of israel will not pass away before the end- from the olivet discourse? if so, what then constitutes a "generation"? i suspect it's around 70 years. from wikipedia...

Second Bar Mitzvah
Among some Jews, a man who has reached the age of 83 will customarily celebrate a second bar mitzvah, under the logic that in the Torah it says that a "normal" lifespan is 70 years, so that an 83-year-old can be considered 13 in a second lifetime. This practice has become increasingly common

it fits. it's possible.

so where are we today? may 14th, 1948 - may 14th, 2011 will be 63 years. don't worry - i'm not trying to date set here. i'm just trying to illustrate how close we could be. if you factor in the remaining 7 year tribulation, you start to creep up on 70 years. :candle

one of the main charts listed in this section places gog/magog in the begining of the tribulation. how is this possible if the a/c confirms the peace treaty for 7 years? would it make more sense if it went like this:

1. 83/17 battle.
*note: while this will be a huge red flag to us, the rest of the world will remain unaware*
2. israel can stretch her feet a little... relax a little. everything seems to be ok.
3. israel still doesn't acknowledge Christ... :tsk
4. PEACE AND SAFETY. here is a brief lull.
5. the rapture!
*while the rapture is imminent, it doesn't mean we won't see another sign, just that we don't have to. so the rapture could very well occur prior to 83/17.
6. unknown period of time- 2 weeks? 2 months? a year? probably not too long IMHO]
7. the muslim world, seizing the chaos, attacks- gog/magog!
*this must happen before the 1st seal so that the 7 years of burning weapons can be fulfilled.
8. God intervenes and israel is delivered
[again, an undetermined amount of time- could be a week, could be a year]
9. the world wants peace... but not Godly peace... so God gives them who they want...
9. ...and the 1st seal is broken in heaven and the a/c is unleashed, confirms the covenant.
10. peace treaty signed.

from this point until the 1/2 way point, the rest of the puzzle pieces fall into place while the remaining seals and trumpets are broken/sounded in heaven which allows the one world government and religious entity to rise up and do their thing during the last half, or the "great tribulation".

i think a lot of people are looking for the one world govt. or the EU to fulfill some sort of prophecy so we can say "the rapture is close". i contend that the world won't see anything close to this until after the rapture and DURING the first half of the tribulation.

without some kind of black swan event, the world will remain the same. not unlike the way 9/11 changed our world, the rapture will change the entire world. it will set the stage for world leaders to submit to a shuffling of the deck. the 10 kings. the world economy. it all leads up to the abomination of desolation half way through and then the bowl judgments.

perhaps we will see the 83/17 battle, perhaps not. but if so- wow! what an opportunity to witness in the last days before the rapture! it will take the world by surprise, but we will know the time is ripe. the season will be upon us.

again, i'm not date setting, just saying that this uproar in the middle east is like a wild fire. things are speeding up and really - who knows what is going on behind the scenes?

time is short! :preach

acoustic1
February 20th, 2011, 01:20 PM
that's assuming you think Jesus meant generation as in lifespan instead of "this generation" meaning the generation of evil that will persist until Jesus comes again.

bubbaganoosh
February 20th, 2011, 03:22 PM
that's assuming you think Jesus meant generation as in lifespan instead of "this generation" meaning the generation of evil that will persist until Jesus comes again.

true. i believe it's the former.

think about what you are suggesting with the latter part of your statement. of course the allegorical "generation of evil" will not pass until the end- that's the whole point of his 2nd coming. so it wouldnt make sense for him to say, in other words, "...this generation [of evil] will not pass until [i return to restore israel and the earth from the gereration of evil] the end." it's a bit redundant. no?

see what i mean? i think he's speaking of the generation alive to see the events of the end times of which israel becoming a nation again has got to be the most important, significant and miraculous of them all. without israel, nothing else can happen.

thoughts?

$teve
February 20th, 2011, 03:40 PM
Well when I first started reading the bible 20 years ago, when I had quite a dramatic conversion from atheism (I know some folk don't believe there is such as thing as atheism but for want of a better term perhaps) to Jesus, when I was reading those passages around the end times, I simply read 'this generation' as the generation that would witness the signs of the end. How long that generation lasts or when that generations begins I didn't know, and I guess, can we be sure that 'the generation' actually commenced in 1948? It is certainly no coincidence that we are now 63 years post-Israel birth of the nation and we are witnessing a major convergence of prophetic activity across various political, social, economic and ecological landscapes - it's really amazing!

Rei
February 20th, 2011, 04:30 PM
It's well-believed that a generation is 70 years. Some Jews even celebrate a second bar-mitzvah on their 83rd birthday because it's like a second lifespan to them.

EDIT: Didn't realize the second bar-mitzvah thing was stated above. Oh well, re-emphasis.