The Two Witnesses: Enoch & Elijah?

[WanttoKnow]

What a wealth of thought here!

[Biblenuggetlady]

but God IS the rule.

He can cause the water to part, He can cause the sun to stand still in the sky.

He is not limited.

I did not put a limit on God. :scratch God has set everything in order, it is ruled by Him, but He is a God of laws, patterns, cycles and parallels throughout the Bible. It is these events that we can be assured that He is just, and what is written WILL come to pass, and to help us know what is to come, because of it's parallel or pattern from the past. Since God "can do anything He wants", He could just blow this whole planet up tomorrow and brush His hands off due to the fallen state of man-BUT, we know He will not do that, even though He "could" because His Word is full of His examples of His justice and it's shown to us thru his patterns in scripture. If God continued to break His patterns throughout scripture, we could not be assured of what/how He would do things in the days to come. God can do anything, and He does, and He lays out in His Word what those things are-He won't change His mind. His patterns and parallels give us confidence of that. Make sense? Way back to when Moses was asked to make the Tabernacle after the pattern of those things in heaven...we have a picture of man's redemption. When Abraham went to sacrafice Issac, we have a picture of a substitute and our future redemption. These things a pattern of God's omniscience. :candle

[sojourner52]

I am not arguing that.

He is a God of laws and order. but He is not bound by His creation.

even the rapture is a break in a pattern - at least to human understanding. "we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed."

He also can intervene supernaturally to grant miracles - which are unexplainable using our understanding.

How did the sun stand still in the sky? that would logically mean the earth stopped turning, wouldnt it? :idunno

God does not allow us to use mediums to communicate with the dead. yet He sent the real Samuel to Saul when the witch pretended to bring him up.

My point is, God is not limited. He can take one man in a rapture (Enoch) and another man in fiery chariot (Elijah) and another man dies but there is something unique about his death and burial.

He can return any or all of them to earth in mortal bodies if that is His plan.

we dont know what His plan is. but both zec and rev identify the two witnesses as the two olive trees that stand before God. if they are standing before God, that means they already exist, doesnt it? :scratch

Moses and Elijah represent the law and the prophets.

Moses and Elijah not only appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, they were discussing what was about to take place in Jerusalem.

they appear to be part of an "inner circle" - like the two olive trees who stand before God.

I dont know why they would not have been named in the book of revelation. maybe God wants whoever is reading that book during the tribulation to look for the real prophets and not imposters running around using their names.

this is speculation, not revelation.

[IamHis]

This verse, John 3:13 in the KJV confuses me.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now, Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I watched "The Gospel of John' last night on DVD, for like, the 4th or 5th time, because it is so well done, and follows the gospel of John so faithfully. For some reason, that scripture never jumped out at me before, but last night it did, and I pondered it. I went to the Blue Letter Bible to find the verse, and there it was! Isn't to be absent from the body and present with the Lord going to heaven? And if it doesn't mean that, what does it mean? Also, when unbelievers die, where does their spirit go? I don't believe in soul sleep as it is called, it doesn't ring true with scripture, but I really would like some clarification on this scripture. Jesus himself said it. Thoughts?

[Tenbear2808]

I believe here the first part means no man's body and spirit like as it was with Jesus who was resurrected.

Those who die their bodies are still in the ground waiting for the Rapture or judgement seat and their spirits are either in Heaven or Hell depending upon their acceptance of Jesus as Lord

[His Bride]

This verse, John 3:13 in the KJV confuses me.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now, Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
I watched "The Gospel of John' last night on DVD, for like, the 4th or 5th time, because it is so well done, and follows the gospel of John so faithfully. For some reason, that scripture never jumped out at me before, but last night it did, and I pondered it. I went to the Blue Letter Bible to find the verse, and there it was! Isn't to be absent from the body and present with the Lord going to heaven? And if it doesn't mean that, what does it mean? Also, when unbelievers die, where does their spirit go? I don't believe in soul sleep as it is called, it doesn't ring true with scripture, but I really would like some clarification on this scripture. Jesus himself said it. Thoughts?


Jesus, the Son of God, came from heaven. He took on the body of man, adding to His divinity, humanity. No one had been to heaven at that point. All of the Old Testament saints died and went to a place of peace and comfort, Abraham's bosom.

When Jesus died for the sins of the whole world He was able to return to His heavenly home with the Father. He also had the power to retrieve from Hades the spirits of the saints of old who had been waiting for their redemption. By the time that Paul wrote his epistles all believers in Jesus were allowed into heaven at the time of their death. Their bodies were buried, but their spirits were given admittance to their heavenly home. Today, it is no different. Believers in the Lord Jesus are ushered into heaven, while their bodies remain on earth until the time that God has chosen to bring all of His Bride home and to transform their earthly bodies into indestructible heavenly bodies. So, today, to be absent from the body ( in death) is to be present with the Lord (in heaven.)

Only God could have instituted such a wonderful plan.

[Robert]

I believe that it means this:

No one was righteous enough to go to heaven under their own power. it took God Almighty (Christ) coming down from heaven to save us by giving those that believe his righteousnesss. It dovetails with what Paul says in Romans 3:10 : " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[Sing4Him]

Jesus, the Son of God, came from heaven. He took on the body of man, adding to His divinity, humanity. No one had been to heaven at that point. All of the Old Testament saints died and went to a place of peace and comfort, Abraham's bosom.

When Jesus died for the sins of the whole world He was able to return to His heavenly home with the Father. He also had the power to retrieve from Hades the spirits of the saints of old who had been waiting for their redemption. By the time that Paul wrote his epistles all believers in Jesus were allowed into heaven at the time of their death. Their bodies were buried, but their spirits were given admittance to their heavenly home. Today, it is no different. Believers in the Lord Jesus are ushered into heaven, while their bodies remain on earth until the time that God has chosen to bring all of His Bride home and to transform their earthly bodies into indestructible heavenly bodies. So, today, to be absent from the body ( in death) is to be present with the Lord (in heaven.)

Only God could have instituted such a wonderful plan.

:nod


it took God Almighty (Christ) coming down from heaven to save us by giving those that believe his righteousnesss. It dovetails with what Paul says in Romans 3:10 : " As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

:nod

[sethola]

to add to this question, what about Enoch and Elijah who were most def. raptured? if not ascended to Heaven, is God just hiding them away for a time?

[Robert]

I believe when Christ went to Hades, he took all the souls who were in Abraham's bosom
to heaven with him. The verse concerning "no man hath ascended into heaven" refers to the fact that no man under his OWN POWER went up to heaven themselves; Christ had to come down for our salvation.