The Two Witnesses: Enoch & Elijah?

[RebekahGrace]

I posted this on another board recently:



In Old Testament times Ezra chpt 2 tells of the Jews - the Remnant that came back to Israel from the Babylonian captivity. They came back to a Temple in ruins - and never seemed to get very far with building a new one. They kept saying that God would build the Temple.......... sounds abit familiar does'nt it.

So in Ezra chpt 3 God sends 2 people to help them. They start to show the Remnant how to carry out the sacrifices and how to build the altar even when the temple is not built they build the altar on the ruins and start the sacrifices again. It is these 2 people that show the Remnant how to do the sacrifices and how to build the altar. It takes another year for the Temple to be built again.

Then Haggai, the Lord’s messenger, spoke the Lord’s message to the people, saying, “I am with you, says the Lord.” So the Lord stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and worked on the house of the Lord of hosts, their God, on the twenty-fourth day of the sixth month, in the second year of King Darius.



Those 2 men were Joshua and Zerubbabel. Now I am not saying that it is those two men again............. just showing what happened once before in biblical history and is that a mirror image of what is going to happen with the 3rd Temple?

Is that the purpose of the 2 Witnesses - why give them the name witness ? they must have witnessed something themselves in order to be able to tell the rest of the Jews about it.




Even Jesus said "Elijah is coming first and will restore all things (Matt. 17:11) - what restoration was Jesus talking about? but the restoration spoken of in the last 2 verses of the last chapter of the Old Testament.

Mal 4:5 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Mal 4:6 "He will restore the hearts of the fathers to {their} children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse."

When preparing for the passover as the table is being set a place setting remains empty for Elijah the prophet, the honored guest at every Passover table. So a place is set, a cup is filled with wine, and hearts are expectant for Elijah to come and announce the Good News. At the end of the seder meal, a child is sent to the door to open it and see if Elijah is there. Every year, the child returns, disappointed, and the wine is poured out without being touched.



here's another thing



why did Satan want Moses' body?

Jude 1 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!

[aquamarinebug]

I believe it will be Moses and Elijah. The argument that it has to be Enoch and Elijah because everyone must die, well... Ya know... If the rapture happens in our lifetime, WE arent going to die, either, along with millions of other believers. So that argument doesnt hold up.

Being a new Christian - and realizing the above...I wondered how that worked out.

[His Bride]

I've always leaned toward Enoch and Elijah because they were taken up by God.

Others have said Moses and Elijah, one representing the Law, and the other the Prophets, which also makes sense from a Jewish standpoint.

So, it's a toss up for me. But I know someone Who knows all things and is preparing them both for that very moment! I wish it were soon, very soon.

[OneThroneAbove]

Hi everyone I'm new here, and just trying to find my way around. I have another idea, what about the disciple that Jesus loved because the gospel of John did say that they would not taste death until they saw the return of the Son of Man in his glory. Not to be overreaching but that could be a theory. :thinking

hope to see you all around
:thumb

[Penguin]

I believe it will be Moses and Elijah. The argument that it has to be Enoch and Elijah because everyone must die, well... Ya know... If the rapture happens in our lifetime, WE arent going to die, either, along with millions of other believers. So that argument doesnt hold up.

But those going through the rapture are a different generation. Moses was not in that generation.

[Biblenuggetlady]

Much speculation has gone around over who the two witnesses are. Scripture is silent on who they are, so speculate is all we can do. What are the positions of the respected Bible Prophecy teachers, lets take a look.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum, ariel.org and author of Footsteps of the Messiah

Dr. Fruchtenbaum believes the two witnesses are going to be two unknown men, who will be raised up for this purpose at the time of the Tribulation and will come on the scene.

Why not Elijah, Enoch or Moses?

The argument that Enoch and Elijah have never died and will return to die during the tribulation is not a valid cause effect conclusion, as if "it is appointed unto man once to die", then raptured believers will have to die also. Hebrews 9:27 is not stated as an absolute rule.

Hebrews 11:5 says, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found because God translated him; for he has had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God". Enoch was clearly translated, "translated" means corruption putting on incorruption and mortality putting on imortality (1 Corinth 15:50-51) Since he is already in heaven, he cannot up corruption on again and return to die.

Moses and Elijah, seen at the Transfiguration draws some to the conclusion that Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses. However, this is also not a valid cause and effect conclusion.

Some say that Moses and Elijah had ministries that were not finished, so they have to return to finish it, again there are many from the OT who left unfinished ministries.

The miracles being done by the two witnesses are similar to Moses and Elijah, this is not sufficient evidence as God can use others to perform the same miracles.


Dr. Fruchtenbaum's conclusion, "It is best to take these men to be two Jewish prophets whom God will raise up, during the tribulation itself. They are purely future persons and not two men from the past. The Scriptures clearly teach that Elijah is to return before the Tribulation and will conduct a ministry during the Tribulation. But there is no scriptural warrant to make Elijah one of the two witnesses. The Two Witnesses will simply be two Jewish men living in that time whom God will elevate to the office of prophet and will endow with miraculous powers. Their exact identity then, awaits the Tribulation." Footsteps of the Messiah, page 232


Dr. Fruchtenbaum believes that Elijah's ministry is one of family restoration and he will inded return, but not as one of the two witnesses. I'll post a seperate thread on this as it is a fascinating thought.



Jack Kelley, Gracethrufaith.com

Why Moses and Elijah?

Jack believes that the strongest evidence for the two witnesses, are for them to be Moses and Elijah. Enoch, he points out, was a "type of the church", but he did not have a ministry to Israel, like Moses and Elijah. Moses and Elijah represent the Law and the Prophets, and to Jack Kelley, are the best candidates.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/where-does-enoch-fit-in/

http://gracethrufaith.com/revelation-times/revelation-10-1114/


REVELATION 11:1-14
The Two Witnesses

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. (Rev. 11:1) Here’s evidence along with Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thes. 2:4 that a Temple will exist before the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Having seen the miraculous way in which God delivered them from certain defeat in the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, Jews from all over the world will respond to His offer of reconciliation and make Aliyah (return to Israel). Their Old Covenant relationship restored, they’ll demand a Temple for worship, and early in the 70th Week of Daniel it will be built. Nearly 2000 years of diaspora (scattering) will finally end.

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. (Rev. 11:2) This verse has been used to support the idea that the Temple will be built next door to the Dome of the Rock. Later, I’ll offer an alternative to this view. But first let’s meet the Two Witnesses.

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. (Rev. 11:3-6) The 3½ year ministry of the two witnesses is not congruent with either half of Daniel’s 70th week but overlaps them, beginning after the 70th week does and ending sometime before the 2nd Coming. Before discussing their identity we should note that they provide the ultimate fulfillment of Zechariah 4:11-14, the “Sons of Oil” prophecy partially fulfilled by Zerubbabel and Joshua in the time of the 2nd Temple’s construction.
Who Are Those Guys?

There are three primary candidates for their identity; Moses, Elijah and Enoch. Elijah and Enoch because they’re the only two in the Old Testament who didn’t die, but were taken into heaven alive. And Moses and Elijah because the powers of these two are identical to those exercised by Moses in the Plagues of Egypt and Elijah in his contention against idolatry in Israel. Remember, it climaxed in his spectacular defeat of the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel with fire from heaven and the end of a 3½-year drought. (You have to read James 5:17 for the duration of the drought. It’s not given in 1 Kings 18.) Also Moses and Elijah were on the Mt. Of Transfiguration with Jesus and the disciples (Matt.17:1-13) and according to early church tradition were the two men in white who appeared to the disciples following the Lord’s ascension. (Acts 1:10-11) And finally Moses and Elijah are two of the most highly revered figures in all of Israel’s past, more able than anyone else God could send to convey His message. Moses was the Law Giver and Elijah was the greatest of Israel’s Prophets. Their two names are all but synonymous with the Jewish name for their scriptures, the Law and the Prophets.

I believe Enoch’s disappearance before the Great Flood was a special event designed to pre-figure the disappearance of the Church before the Great Tribulation. As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the Coming of the Son of Man. (Matt 24:37) In the days of Noah the world perished in the Flood. They represent those who will perish in the Great Tribulation. Noah and his family were preserved through the Flood and represent Israel, preserved through the Great Tribulation. Enoch was taken alive into Heaven before the Flood, representing the Church who will be taken alive into heaven before the Great Tribulation. For all these reasons, I hold the Moses and Elijah view.

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (Rev. 11:7-14)

There’s no question that their bodies were left where they fell in the streets of Jerusalem. It’s the city where the Lord was crucified. And through the technology of satellite communications their dead bodies will be visible all over the world.

In Middle Eastern cultures the greatest insult one can convey is to deny burial to one’s enemy. Their deaths prompt the only expression of joy on earth in the entire book. But after 3½ days, symbolic of the length of the Great Tribulation, the two witnesses will hear the same command that John heard in Rev. 4:1, “Come up here!” and will ascend into Heaven in full view of the whole world. Just as the Lord’s command in chapter 4 was a model of the Rapture of the Church, the command here is a model of the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs.

In the Psalms we read, O God, the nations have invaded your inheritance; they have defiled your holy temple, they have reduced Jerusalem to rubble. They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth. They have poured out blood like water all around Jerusalem, and there is no one to bury the dead.(Psalm 79:1-3) It’s a clear prophecy of things to come, and it begins in Revelation 11.

By saying that the earthquake survivors gave glory to God, John didn’t mean that they worshipped Him or came to faith in Him. It means that they correctly attributed these miraculous events to Him, like the Egyptian priests did in explaining the cause of the plagues in Exodus 8:19.
Where’s The Temple?

This part of chapter 11 hints at some troubling inconsistencies with our understanding of the coming Temple’s location. It’s given as the Holy City in verse 2, but in verse 8 Jerusalem is called the Great City, figuratively Sodom and Egypt. Are they the same? The Holy City will be trampled on by the Gentiles for 42 months, but Jesus said that Jerusalem would be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, over 2000 years.

For generations a controversy has existed among Jews and Christians alike as to the exact location of Solomon’s and Herod’s Temples. The Jewish Sanhedrin, recently formed again after 1600 years, is tackling the question as one of it’s first priorities. Call me naïve but I think we’ve all been asking the wrong question. Sure it’s great to know the exact placement of these historical monuments to God, but the real question is, “Where will the next Temple be?”

Many Christians think the coming 3rd Temple will be desecrated by the Abomination of Desolation during the Great Tribulation and then destroyed. For that reason they call it the Tribulation Temple. Then another Temple, number four, will be built at the beginning of the Millennium. But the only model we have for all of this is the desecration of the 2nd Temple leading up to the Macabbean Revolt. And it’s something that Jesus took pains to point us toward in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:15).

In the model, Syrian ruler Antiochus Epiphanes stormed the Temple and converted it into a pagan worship center in 167 BC. He slaughtered a pig on the altar and erected a statue of Zeus (Jupiter) in the holy place with his own face on it, thereby proclaiming himself to be God (Epiphanes means god made manifest) and required worship on pain of death. In 1 Macabbees, this was called the Abomination of Desolation, the only event so named in history. It triggered the Macabbean revolt, a 3 ½ year battle to oust Antiochus from the Promised Land. The Jews thought it fulfilled Daniel 9:27, but almost 200 years later Jesus told Israel to look for it in the future as the sign that the Great Tribulation has begun, thereby identifying it as a model for the End Times Abomination of Desolation. And it’s true that the Macabbean Revolt contains many remarkable similarities to the Great Tribulation.

Here’s the point. The Jews didn’t destroy the Temple after the Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC. When they recaptured it, they destroyed the statue and replaced the Altar. Then they subjected the Temple to the eight-day purification ceremony required by Law and began using it again. The purification is remembered to this day in the Feast of Chanukkah. If the model is complete, then the Temple built during Daniel’s 70th week won’t be destroyed either, but will become the Millennial Temple described in great detail by Ezekiel in chapters 40-48. (The Jews call Ezekiel’s Temple the 3rd Temple.) And that means it won’t be in Jerusalem. Next time I’ll show you where it will be.


Dr. David Reagan, Lamb and Lion Ministries, www.lamblion.com

Why Enoch and Elijah?


I believe the two most likely candidates are Enoch and Elijah. Both were men of righteousness who were raptured to Heaven. Neither experienced death. Both were prophets, and one was a Gentile (Enoch) and the other was a Jew (Elijah).

...

So, we know for certain from the passage in Malachi that one of the two witnesses will be Elijah. The identity of the other is unknown. He could be either Moses or Enoch. I side with Enoch because he was a Gentile, and I believe the Lord is going to supply two witnesses instead of one because He is going to ordain one to speak to the Jews and the other to the Gentiles.



I think the above three give a good idea of each theory that is out there. Until the time comes, we can only speculate. :candle

[SaberTruth]

Good stuff, Biblenuggetlady!

I would just like to add one tiny point: that just as "die once" isn't universal such that Enoch and Elijah would be required to experience it, it follows that neither would the fact that Moses already died once prevent him from dying again. After all, many were raised when Jesus was crucified, and a few were raised before that by OT prophets and then Jesus Himself.

[saved by Grace]

Moses and Elijah appeared at the transfiguration.i am really sure it will be them.look at the plagues they strike with.the ability to stop any rain which Elijah has done and the various plagues that Moses struck Egypt with when he was trying to get pharaoh to "let his people go"

[His Bride]

Hi everyone I'm new here, and just trying to find my way around. I have another idea, what about the disciple that Jesus loved because the gospel of John did say that they would not taste death until they saw the return of the Son of Man in his glory. Not to be overreaching but that could be a theory. :thinking

hope to see you all around
:thumb

The apostle John did see the return of Jesus in glory, and what was seen was written as the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the last book of the Bible.
But it's good to see you pondering these things.:wave

[OneThroneAbove]

The apostle John did see the return of Jesus in glory, and what was seen was written as the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the last book of the Bible.
But it's good to see you pondering these things.:wave

Oh, thanks for correcting me, I'm still a little new at prophesy:wave