Church of God a cult?

[CountryBumpkin]

Let's sum up what I have been talking about:

1. Salvation (the indwelling Spirit of God) and baptism in the Holy Spirit (control of your body and mind given to the spirit) are two separate acts of God. (Acts 8)

2. I established that there was an outward supernatural manifestation of the Spirit every time that someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the Bible (Acts 2, Acts 8). The only indication the Bible gives to what that manifestation was is tongues (Acts 2:4). If there was no supernatural manifestation (i.e. tongues) in your life (aside from salvation) I would be bold and say you were not baptized in the Holy Spirit.

3. God is all powerful and works through whom ever He chooses. Does He work through Christians who are not baptized in the Holy Spirit? Yes. Can the gifts of the Spirit be found in a Christian who is not baptized? Yes. I compared this to the Old Testament were the Holy Spirit came "upon" (as opposed to being "filled") someone to do a work and then left that person. This is not another baptism. This is how God works. This is how the Holy Spirit will work during the tribulation after the Christians have left the earth.

Should we seek tongues? Absolutely not. Seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who gave utterance in Acts 2. He is the one who will perform the supernatural manifestation, whatever that may be.


You quote Acts 2: 4. It says: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (bold mine)

Do you notice that it says "all", not some. This means the whole church, not one excluded. Do you also notice that it says they were "filled" not baptised. I understand this as an immediate effect of salvation, not as a subsequent,separate baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[ready-as-ever]

You quote Acts 2: 4. It says: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (bold mine)

Do you notice that it says "all", not some. This means the whole church, not one excluded. Do you also notice that it says they were "filled" not baptised. I understand this as an immediate effect of salvation, not as a subsequent,separate baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture doen't lie, all were baptized that day, all who was involved in one accord. Today, not all Christians are baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Were the disciples then not saved until they received the baptism? Are you not saved when you believe and repent? Christ said "whosoever believes". I pointed out in scripture that there are those who believed and were baptized (water) into the faith who had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Also, it is referred to as baptism in other verses.

[BlessedinHim]

You quote Acts 2: 4. It says: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (bold mine)

Do you notice that it says "all", not some. This means the whole church, not one excluded. Do you also notice that it says they were "filled" not baptised. I understand this as an immediate effect of salvation, not as a subsequent,separate baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I think another key word here is "as".

Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.



And another thing that is baffling, is that those men when they began speaking in tongues, the unbelievers understood what they were saying. So, is tongues a gift given for certain occasions when necessary to communicate the message to unbelievers that dont speak the language of the ones bearing the message? The tongues here is not some un-knowable syllables. There were some there who understood, if you will, interpreters, following the principles in the Corinthians, of what was being said.

You must read the whole thing in context.

[ginger]

I used to attend a Church of God (Anderson) and there weren't a cult. I did quit going though because as I learned more on my own about different doctrines, I didn't agree with there doctrines. What really did it was when they started the 40 Days of Purpose. The doctrines I disagreed with were they don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved and they are amillenial.

[Enoch]

You won't find God just anywhere.


The Bible disagrees with you..

Psalm 139
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Jeremiah 23
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

1 Kings 8
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

God's omnipresence is all over the Bible and many verses that could be posted to show that yes He can be found anywhere because He is everywhere. The Lamb is even present in the place of hell...

Revelation 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


I don't know who Armstrong is.

Herbert Armstrong is the founder of the Worldwide Church of God, you can read about him here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong


I never believe anyones opinion unless they have scripture in context to back it up. Nor do one persons writings need to replace the Bible.

Nor should anyone advocate you should. I also realize there are very very few who even recognize spiritual truths even when shown verses out of the Bible and rather take verses out of the Bible and make them other's opinions.

Personally, I've just never had a hard time finding God but I was raised that God is a very BIG God and not Someone in a box hidden away as man likes to write down and make for truth.

May God Bless You,
Enoch

[ready-as-ever]

The Bible disagrees with you..

Psalm 139
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Jeremiah 23
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

1 Kings 8
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

God's omnipresence is all over the Bible and many verses that could be posted to show that yes He can be found anywhere because He is everywhere. The Lamb is even present in the place of hell...

Revelation 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:



Herbert Armstrong is the founder of the Worldwide Church of God, you can read about him here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong



Nor should anyone advocate you should. I also realize there are very very few who even recognize spiritual truths even when shown verses out of the Bible and rather take verses out of the Bible and make them other's opinions.

Personally, I've just never had a hard time finding God but I was raised that God is a very BIG God and not Someone in a box hidden away as man likes to write down and make for truth.

May God Bless You,
Enoch

I agree that God is omnipresent, but one will not find Him in a buddist camp, hindu temple or islamic temple. The only way to God the Father is through Jesus Christ our Lord. To many people say that you can find God anywhere and use that excuse to accept all religions. I am very careful to say that He is everywhere.

One "Christian" tried to tell me since God is everywhere, He is in everything. And that those who worship other gods are actually worship God Himself. Using this reasoning one could say that since God lives inside of us, we could just worship ourselves just the same.

[ready-as-ever]

I used to attend a Church of God (Anderson) and there weren't a cult. I did quit going though because as I learned more on my own about different doctrines, I didn't agree with there doctrines. What really did it was when they started the 40 Days of Purpose. The doctrines I disagreed with were they don't believe in Once Saved Always Saved and they are amillenial.

Amillenial is definatly not a belief of Church of God Cleveland TN. I am not a big fan of Warran's "Purpose Driven" whatever.

But, I have never understood "Once saved always saved". If I had to make the choice to follow Christ, could I then decide not to follow Christ? When it says "you will be saved" does it mean that the salvation happens the minute you believed, or are you saved from hell after you die?

[Pat Hood]

Worldwide Church of God has split into many parts now. When we belonged it preached British israelism, as in a previous post, kept the Levitical feasts and very little, if anything, was taught about Christ and the New Testament.

[Remnant]

Amillenial is definatly not a belief of Church of God Cleveland TN. I am not a big fan of Warran's "Purpose Driven" whatever.

But, I have never understood "Once saved always saved". If I had to make the choice to follow Christ, could I then decide not to follow Christ? When it says "you will be saved" does it mean that the salvation happens the minute you believed, or are you saved from hell after you die?

RAE, I do not like to use the term once saved always saved, but I do believe in eternal security. 1 John 5:13 says: These things are written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal Life. Noticed it says eternal, that means everlasting life. What things? The word of God. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. To believe is to have a firm persuasion that He is who He says He is. Then we can have life forever and we are saved from an everlasting hell to a everlasting life.

The question about salvation, does it happen immediately? Yes! Saved from Hell then? Yes! Saved from the wages of sin, saved from unforgivness, saved from sin.

Another scripture that I think about concerning eternal security is John 10:27-29 Jesus said; My sheep hear my voice, ands I know them, and they follow Me. v28. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. v29. My Father , who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of my Fathers hand.

These are just a few scriptures that gives us believers assurance of salvation. Not just for a little while and until we sin again but forever. He has cast our sins as far as the east to the west, never to remember anymore.

If your sins have been coverd by the blood of the Lamb, can we undo that? No! I don't think we have that power. Kind of reminds me of the old Hymn called Washed in the blood. Power, Power, wonder working power cause we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Servant, Frank

[Enoch]

I agree that God is omnipresent, but one will not find Him in a buddist camp, hindu temple or islamic temple. The only way to God the Father is through Jesus Christ our Lord. To many people say that you can find God anywhere and use that excuse to accept all religions. I am very careful to say that He is everywhere.

One "Christian" tried to tell me since God is everywhere, He is in everything. And that those who worship other gods are actually worship God Himself. Using this reasoning one could say that since God lives inside of us, we could just worship ourselves just the same.

That would be gnostic in saying since God is everywhere He is in everything, but since I didn't say that, I dont see the source of confusion. Personally, I do believe God can be found in a pagan temple on a mountainside or an RCC church. God desires the heart and if that weren't true, then conversions would be limited to places and "holy" ground, which Jesus abolished. Also jail conversions would be out of the question, bar room conversions, no harlot would be able to be Saved. I believe truely that God is there for anyone at any time as long as they open their heart to Him through Jesus Christ.

Also, I don't worry too much about what other's may think or say but rather I must give account for my words. If someone ads to them something I didn't say, that's on them ;) You can drive yourself into a legalistic frenzy in my opinion by worrying about everyone else's opinions and what they may say.