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sopo
December 21st, 2008, 01:29 AM
By all means, protect others, protect your family, protect the word. But I would say running, fleeing to the mountains perhaps, would be a much better route to achieve this. Especially for those alive during the tribulation. Our battle is not with swords or the flesh, but with principles and virtues. We quite obviously would be stopped in our tracks rebelling against the man of lawlessness, or even beforehand, the powers that bring him to his place.

Why I say, run, rather then standing ground and firing, what about the man that just died, serving the military? Was he no better then the one who killed him? Has he been saved? How was Gods love being reflected off His child who just shot this man dead and quite possibly went to hell?

Say a group of militants, following a tyrannous government, broke into my house and things were as bad as they'd get before tribulation, no shots would be fired by me. If they would kill me and my family for being "enemies of the state" (specifially, christian) then so be it. I may try and knock them out, and help my family escape, moreso if any of them wern't saved, but if this be my fate it was in the Lords plan. If they sought to detain us, so be it. Christians can expect persecution, where does it say "Kill those who may persecute you?" Rather, pray for them and endure.

And if I am found unworthy for rapture and live into it, of course I would need to analize my life, seriously, but even at that point, running would be my only recourse. I would be terrofied to pick up a gun and shoot an unbelieving man. (and certainly wouldn't shoot a believing one!)

To die is to gain in the Lord.

I've wrestled with this lately myself. I am from a gun toting, protect what's yours type family. My brother, uncles, grandfather, all have concealed gun permits. I could shoot better than most guys growing up. I even held a drunk guy off at gun point. He was trying to break into our home with rape on his mind. Somehow, God has changed my thinking lately. Since Pat went to be with the Lord, I have a different outlook on many things. This is one of them. Before, I could have easily have shot someone that was a threat to my family or me. Now, I do not think I could. I truly don't feel I could shoot an unsaved man and send him to hell. The way I see it, if he kills me, he is only doing me a favor. I am in the Lord's presence immediately. However, if I killed him then I am ending his chance to repent and find Jesus. If I didn't kill him, there is always the chance of him turning to Jesus before it's too late.

Seriously makes you think about it.

lostsheep
December 21st, 2008, 07:25 AM
I've wrestled with this lately myself. I am from a gun toting, protect what's yours type family. My brother, uncles, grandfather, all have concealed gun permits. I could shoot better than most guys growing up. I even held a drunk guy off at gun point. He was trying to break into our home with rape on his mind. Somehow, God has changed my thinking lately. Since Pat went to be with the Lord, I have a different outlook on many things. This is one of them. Before, I could have easily have shot someone that was a threat to my family or me. Now, I do not think I could. I truly don't feel I could shoot an unsaved man and send him to hell. The way I see it, if he kills me, he is only doing me a favor. I am in the Lord's presence immediately. However, if I killed him then I am ending his chance to repent and find Jesus. If I didn't kill him, there is always the chance of him turning to Jesus before it's too late.

Seriously makes you think about it.

While I totally respect your position and admire your heart :hug
I totally disagree with these statements. If someone is going to hell it will not under any circumstances be because some other person ended there life before they could accept the Lord. God is so much bigger than that don't you think?
While I wouldn't want to shoot someone either, I do know for sure that if it came down to it the last thing on my mind would be wether or not I was sending this person to hell. It just doesn't work that way. God determines who is his not man.
Sorry if I came off harsh. I just do not see room for man to be the ultimate decider of his salvation.

Texas Girl
December 21st, 2008, 07:58 PM
While I totally respect your position and admire your heart :hug
I totally disagree with these statements. If someone is going to hell it will not under any circumstances be because some other person ended there life before they could accept the Lord. God is so much bigger than that don't you think?
While I wouldn't want to shoot someone either, I do know for sure that if it came down to it the last thing on my mind would be wether or not I was sending this person to hell. It just doesn't work that way. God determines who is his not man.
Sorry if I came off harsh. I just do not see room for man to be the ultimate decider of his salvation.

Agreed. The Lord is in control and has no doubt offered many many chances. We are not responsible for others salvation. We can be used by God but it is between Him and each person. I believe.

sopo
December 21st, 2008, 11:48 PM
So you both would be okay with killing another human before they had a chance to turn to God? I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

Texas Girl
December 22nd, 2008, 09:59 AM
So you both would be okay with killing another human before they had a chance to turn to God? I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

before they had a chance??????? like 20 or 30 or 40 years of chances??????

Texas Girl
December 22nd, 2008, 10:00 AM
So you both would be okay with killing another human before they had a chance to turn to God? I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

before they had a chance??????? like 20 or 30 or 40 years of chances?????? :idunno

lostsheep
December 22nd, 2008, 10:51 AM
So you both would be okay with killing another human before they had a chance to turn to God? I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

First I am NOT okay with killing others, I don't even own a gun. Second at the judgement set of Christ can you imagine God throwing someone into the eternal lake of fire because they were just never given the chance the accept him? It could be from a car accident or some other random act of violence.
Here is a thought, a good friend of mine had a brain aneurism years ago and died. It was during a time in my life that I new the truth but never shared it with him. I was running from God myself at that point in time. Do you think that he could be ETERNALLY seperated from God because I never open MY mouth to share the good news of Jesus Christ with him?
Saying yes he is burning in hell because of me is severly limiting God and his sovereignty.
All of those that the Father has given me Jesus said. He didn't say some, he said ALL.
On the cross Jesus said it is FINISHED, he didn't say it has begun.
How about this one, All the days ordained for me where written in your book before one of them came to be.
Now my mind cannot totally grasp how this can be and still have free will and choices in life, but I don't have to grasp it I am not God. I just know that he is in way more control of things than I give him credit for sometimes.
Again forgive me sister if I have offended you. Your heart is right in your thinking.
Paul

dynamicrealism
December 22nd, 2008, 11:29 AM
They were given a chance every second of living during life. Under self defense, you just happen to stop the clock. It is fallacious to assume that you directly send them to hell, when infact, they sent themselves to hell. If it involves protection of one's family and friends, be a realist and use your head to protect yourself.

sopo
December 22nd, 2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, be a realist and protect yourself as this is what Jesus did, right?

WRONG. When they came into the garden and the disciple drew his sword and struck the soldier, Jesus got angry. I don't believe the Bible says "you will be persecuted for my name's sake, but be sure and defend yourself even to killing your enemies." No, LOVE your enemies, turn the other cheek, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

No need for further comments, we can just agree to disagree on this one. :)

WarriorX
December 22nd, 2008, 12:11 PM
So you both would be okay with killing another human before they had a chance to turn to God? I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.

How many wars, self defense situations, and other things has caused this to happen? It's THEIR choice to get themselves into a lethal situation..... muslims do it all the time.