Dr. Chafer On Covenant Theology

[Saved by Grace_06]

Is it possible to have a list of who is what?

like:
MacAthur.. doesn't he lean Covenant? yet I have heard he is partially dispen? :doh

others??
Reformed is Calvinist?

Also, just wanted to say that not every Calvinist is reformed. So, you might a Calvinist like MacAuthur, but he isnt reformed.

Reformed Calvinist include:

John Piper
Paul Washer
Al Mohler
CH Spurgeon
Jonathan Edwards
John Owen
and
Benny Hinn (Just kiddin!)

[Mentat]

Is it possible to have a list of who is what?

like:
MacAthur.. doesn't he lean Covenant? yet I have heard he is partially dispen? :doh

others??
Reformed is Calvinist?

"MacArthur calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist"--meaning he rejects any and all "dispensational" soteriological innovations, holding to classic Reformed (i.e., Protestant, not "covenantal") soteriology. MacArthur's "dispensationalism" is eschatological and ecclesiological only. And given the fact that soteriology is central to our whole understanding of Christianity, whereas eschatology and ecclesiology deal primarily with secondary doctrines, it would be my assessment that MacArthur has far less in common with Ryrie than he would have with anyone who believes 1) that God's grace is efficacious for regeneration and sanctification as well as for justification, and 2) that God graciously guarantees the perseverance of all true believers." - Phil Johnson

The more I study Disp. vs. CT - the more my head spins. I'm at the point where I think we need a new model.

My issue with Disp. is the "two ways to God", one for ethnic Israel and one for spiritual Israel (elect-church). Which Disp. would say that concept is Hyper-Disp. not true Disp. (Overstatement)

I don't think CT means replacement. I look at John 15 on the vine illustration and that teachs me the continuation of God's people from OT to today. The Acts church is almost 100% Jews, at first.

[CarolLyn]

Also, just wanted to say that not every Calvinist is reformed. So, you might a Calvinist like MacAuthur, but he isnt reformed.

Reformed Calvinist include:

John Piper
Paul Washer
Al Mohler
CH Spurgeon
Jonathan Edwards
John Owen
and
Benny Hinn (Just kiddin!)

R.C. Sproul is also Reformed Calvinist. He is the one I quoted above in this thread because I was amazed at his view on Romans 11. I was always taught that CT and replacement theology were the same, but he said (referring to Rom.11) that it was to be taken literally and that God still has future plans for Israel, that indeed, "all Israel will be saved". I always thought that CT's taught that this phrase was pertaining to the "church" which they call "spiritual Israel". I was delighted to find out that he had this view about Israel's future.

[CarolLyn]

My issue with Disp. is the "two ways to God", one for ethnic Israel and one for spiritual Israel (elect-church). Which Disp. would say that concept is Hyper-Disp. not true Disp. (Overstatement)
I agree. I am a traditional dispensationalist. The Hyper-Disp. I also have a problem with. They are being called Pauline Dispensationalists. There is a thread on this board explaining their pov.

I don't think CT means replacement. I look at John 15 on the vine illustration and that teachs me the continuation of God's people from OT to today. The Acts church is almost 100% Jews, at first.
From Pentecost on, Jews who trust in Jesus as savior become part of the church. You are right, the original church was almost entirely made up of Jews. A careful reading of Rom. 11:17-26 indicates that Israel has been partially hardened in order to bring in the Gentiles (but there is still a remnant of Jews being saved even today). The church (including those Jews who believe in Jesus) will be raptured before the tribulation starts and then God will deal with (unbelieving)Israel again. At the end of the trib., Israel will repent, realizing (upon His return) that Jesus is Messiah. Then the Millennial Kingdom will be set up. The MK will be populated by Jews and Gentiles who survived the trib and trusted in Jesus as savior.

[Saved by Grace_06]

R.C. Sproul is also Reformed Calvinist. He is the one I quoted above in this thread because I was amazed at his view on Romans 11. I was always taught that CT and replacement theology were the same, but he said (referring to Rom.11) that it was to be taken literally and that God still has future plans for Israel, that indeed, "all Israel will be saved". I always thought that CT's taught that this phrase was pertaining to the "church" which they call "spiritual Israel". I was delighted to find out that he had this view about Israel's future.

Yep, you got it. Its CT and Replacement theology aren't the same. Rather than having the church replay Israel, CT teaches that God always had one people saved by grace. In the OT he used the Jews as his means to evangelize the world and the NT he uses his church. Both the saints of the OT and NT were/are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah, Jesus. All of Israel refers to spiritual Israel - that is - both Jews and Gentiles that have faith in Jesus.

[CarolLyn]

Are you CT?

[Saved by Grace_06]

Are you CT?


Honestly sis, I have no idea. All these names make my head hurt. So far I learn toward CT since I fully agree with most of the doctrines expounded in Calvinism; especially those that deal with Salvation.

[CarolLyn]

I admire your honesty. I too am a Calvinist. Calvinism is an explanation of the plan of salvation starting with man's condition before the salvation experience and ending with God's keeping the believer secure in Him once God has saved Him. Dispensationalism is an explanation of how God has dealt with mankind throughout history, regarding what God requires of man during different economies, but not necessarily regarding salvation. I'm not real good at explaining things, but what I'm getting at is that being a Calvinist really does not affect whether you are a dispensationalist or covenant theologian. Except that I'm finding out more and more (mostly from reading this board) that most dispensationalists are not Calvinists. I guess it's kind of lonesome around here if you are a Calvinist and not a dispensationalist. You do a wonderful job of defending Calvinism. I have learned a lot from your threads. Thanks. God bless you :thumb

[Mentat]

I admire your honesty. I too am a Calvinist...

Except that I'm finding out more and more (mostly from reading this board) that most dispensationalists are not Calvinists. :thumb

Agree - and thanks for your comments. The more I study the Bible and the articles pro and against different doctrines, the less I like labels. Mainly because I can't get a consistent definition of what the label means.

Having said that, I would agree with SBG06 in that I am Calvinist and more CT than Disp. I also think that I am a partial-preterist.

However John MacArthur just gave a big speech, called "Why Calvinism Necessitates Premillennialism" where he denounced Amil/Preterist in favor of Premil/Futurism. So while it doesn’t change my soteriology, it does make me want to re-think my eschatology.

I am always willing to submit to scripture. To be willing to abandon that which contradicts God's word in favor of a view that harmonizes with the Bible.

[CarolLyn]

I am always willing to submit to scripture. To be willing to abandon that which contradicts God's word in favor of a view that harmonizes with the Bible.

Very wise! I too try to keep an open mind, trying to keep reevaluating what I believe and testing it against the scriptures. It seems to me that there isn't any system of belief that doesn't have some contradictions in it. God bless.