Dr. Chafer On Covenant Theology

[Beth O]

Thanks for sharing the link.

You're welcome.


Presbyterian and Reformed churches follow what is called the "regulative principal of worship." This principle simply states that whatever is not specifically prescribed in Scripture for worship is forbidden. There are no "elaborate ceremonies", candles, or incense. They are very "plain" services.

Also, as stated in my previous post, they do not teach Israel was permanently rejected and replaced. The many verses I quoted previously specifically state the inclusion of Gentiles which is what CT's believe. I'm not denying that you could find some quotes on the internet stating otherwise (there's always at least one out there!), but am saying that it is far from typical in orthodox circles. In fact, historic premillenialism is not uncommon in Presby/Reformed churches.

As quoted in my previous post.
As would be expected, there is considerable variety within Covenant Theology traditions, but the following are some of the standard characteristics:




The statements on infant baptism you quote are... well... I'm not quite sure what the author means.:idunno This is not the Presby/Reformed view though!


For some of those that adhere to replacement theology, they have replaced the circumcision of babies of the OT, with infant baptism as entering into the Covenant with God.

[Elect1]

As quoted in my previous post.
Quote:
As would be expected, there is considerable variety within Covenant Theology traditions, but the following are some of the standard characteristics:

Sorry if I was unclear, but I was just trying to note that while yes, there is variation, these are not "standard characteristics", as the quote says, of the Presby or Reformed churches. I just wanted to let you know that these two differ greatly from the others mentioned.

For some of those that adhere to replacement theology, they have replaced the circumcision of babies of the OT, with infant baptism as entering into the Covenant with God.

Again if I was unclear, I apologize. The term "replacement theology" is misleading and somewhat derogatory in that the Presby/Reformed churches do not teach replacement. See the following wikipedia article for some clarification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replacement_theology . Also, I sort of understand what the author is getting at regarding baptism, but again, this is not the view in the Presby/Reformed. That however is another looooooong discussion (going on 2000 years now:lol2).

Just wanted to try to clear up any misconceptions and thankks for the feedback!:thumb

[Elect1]

Just found this and thought it was helpful. It is a chart on each of the four millennial views; Dispensationalism, Historic Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Amillennialism. It also lists some theologians for each view.

http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/eschatology-charts/millennial_views.pdf

[Mentat]

Also, as stated in my previous post, they do not teach Israel was permanently rejected and replaced. The many verses I quoted previously specifically state the inclusion of Gentiles which is what CT's believe. I'm not denying that you could find some quotes on the internet stating otherwise (there's always at least one out there!), but am saying that it is far from typical in orthodox circles. In fact, historic premillenialism is not uncommon in Presby/Reformed churches.


:thumb I agree that "orthodox" CT would see the chuch as the wild olive tree in John 15 and Romans 11. I see the doctrine of grace in both OT and NT based on Hebrews 11 and Romans.

[Elect1]

:thumb I agree that "orthodox" CT would see the chuch as the wild olive tree in John 15 and Romans 11. I see the doctrine of grace in both OT and NT based on Hebrews 11 and Romans.

Great point on John 15. Notice how Romans 11 compares:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Rom 11:17-19 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

One vine, one tree, one root - Christ. God was calling a people out of the world for himself in the OT just as he is in the NT. He has only ever had one people which are branches of the One Vine through faith. Hebrews 11 makes this clear. God is the same now and forever. :)

[Saved by Grace_06]

To expound on this, think of it as a pendulum; God's people primarily consisted of elect Jews in the OT. In the NT the pendulum has swung the other way to primarily consist of elect Gentiles. In the future (and this will be a sign of the end) the pendulum will swing back to the Jews as it says in Romans 11:26.

To reinforce this with Scripture (mainly that God has and will always have one people and one plan for His people) note the following:

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph 2:11-19 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Notice here especially the Gentiles were "strangers to the covenants of promise" and are now grafted into the ONE olive tree (Rom 11:17-19) as seen below:

Rom 11:17-19 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

There are not 2 olive trees with 2 different plans. There is ONE olive tree which consist of the "fellow citizens" of the "covenants of promise" (Eph 2:11-19). Notice Israel has not been replaced but has been expanded to include the world (John 3:16).

I praise God for the understanding that he has given you!

[CarolLyn]

Hi Elect1 :wave

I'm not sure where to start here. I too am a member of a Reformed Presb. church, but didn't realize for a long time what their beliefs were. I am basically a traditional (not Pauline or Ultra) dispensationalist, but try to be open-minded and search the scriptures for the truth. As I stated in a previous post, it seems to me that CT and Disp. are basically opposites. I'm not sure where to start so will begin with your post to SavedbyGrace...

To expound on this, think of it as a pendulum; God's people primarily consisted of elect Jews in the OT. In the NT the pendulum has swung the other way to primarily consist of elect Gentiles. In the future (and this will be a sign of the end) the pendulum will swing back to the Jews as it says in Romans 11:26.

To reinforce this with Scripture (mainly that God has and will always have one people and one plan for His people) note the following:

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants Reading this scripture in context, It seems to me that both sets of children referred to here are refering to Israel. In other words, only those physical descendants of Jacob (Israel) who are of faith are considered true descentants. I don't see anything in the text that is referring to the church. (edit to say:) other than the following verses:
Romans 9: 22. What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23. And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24. even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25. As He says also in Hosea,
"I will call those who were not My people, `My people,'
But, as I see it, the reference to gentiles in verse 24 is bringing home the argument of predestination, saying that the doctrine of election applies to Gentiles as well as Israel. He even gave the reason here for choosing some and not others, in vs. 22 & 23. It seems to me that he is saying, in effect, that if everyone were chosen, then salvation wouldn't be special. It would perhaps be taken for granted. Oh well, I think I got a little off the subject here.:doh

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Here again, reading the entire chapter in context, we will realize that Paul is speaking about salvation based on faith rather than on obedience to the law.
Note Vs.21-26 21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
I think the allusion here is to the OT verse which says: "And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Gen 15:6). So, regarding the church today, we believe in the (ultimate) sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins, and it is counted to us as righteousness. In this regard, we are children of Abraham.

Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, Yes! All the OT sacrifices were foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, God's Son. There has never been nor will ever be salvation by any other means than through faith in God's ultimate sacrifice.

Eph 2:11-19 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14) For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
The way I read this, it is saying that in the OT, God was dealing only with the Jews. Gentiles were not welcome. Granted, there were a few prostelytes, but they had to renounce everything, becoming (in effect) Jews.

Notice here especially the Gentiles were "strangers to the covenants of promise" and are now grafted into the ONE olive tree (Rom 11:17-19) as seen below: Yes, indeed.

Rom 11:17-19 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

There are not 2 olive trees with 2 different plans. There is ONE olive tree which consist of the "fellow citizens" of the "covenants of promise" (Eph 2:11-19). Notice Israel has not been replaced but has been expanded to include the world (John 3:16). According to the literal translation of verse 17, the word "shoot" does not belong here, it was added by the translators. It should read "you, although a wild olive, were grafted in among the others are now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree." You see, it does not say that we share in the tree, but that we share in the root , which is Jesus. It seems to me that there are two trees, both partaking of the same root. Whereas in the OT, Gentiles were not invited to share in the blessings of Israel, now, in the NT, both gentiles and Jews through faith in Christ, become one body, which is the church. What I'm getting at here is that the church did not exist in the OT as Covenant Theology teachs.

Another point indicating that (OT)Israel and the church are dealt with separately is that God promised the land to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. This land promise has never been fulfilled. This seems to be overlooked entirely by CT. God always fulfills His promises in every detail and since the church did not exist in the OT, this promise will be fulfilled to Israel, to whom it was promised. According to OT prophecy, this will be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom.

Jeremiah 16: 14. "Therefore behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when it will no longer be said, `As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,'
15. but, `As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.

Jeremiah 23:8. but, `As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.' Then they will live on their own soil."

Ezekiel 11: 17. "Therefore say, `Thus says the Lord God, "I shall gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I shall give you the land of Israel."'

Ezekiel 20:42. "And you will know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.
43. "And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done.
44. "Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel," declares the Lord God.'"

Ezekiel 28:25. `Thus says the Lord God, "When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and shall manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob. 26. "And they will live in it securely; and they will build houses, plant vineyards, and live securely, when I execute judgments upon all who scorn them round about them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God."'"

Ezekiel 36: 24. "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
25. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Amos 9: 14. "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them,
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15. "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
As you can see, Father fully intends to keep His promise to Israel in the end times. I would appreciate hearing your views on this from a CT perspective.

[Elect1]

Thanks for taking the time to think this through and in such detail. I hope the following helps you in your study.

In that we must always compare Scripture with Scripture, I would submit the following verses to aid in understanding the Romans passage to which you referred. Take note of the highlighted sections and the specific references to the expansion of the promises to the Gentiles.

Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

In 1 Peter, regardless of whether he is speaking to Jews or Gentiles, he addresses his crowd as God's elect. God's elect are part of the Church:

1 Pet 2:9 ¶ But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Who are they fellow heirs, fellow members, fellow partakers with? Who was disputing their inclusion? True Israel (elect Jews) were! This means Paul was emphasizing the Gentile's inclusion!

As you can see, Father fully intends to keep His promise to Israel in the end times.

What I'm getting at here is that the church did not exist in the OT as Covenant Theology teachs.

Another point indicating that (OT)Israel and the church are dealt with separately is that God promised the land to Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob. This land promise has never been fulfilled. This seems to be overlooked entirely by CT.

In reference to the land promises not being fulfilled I would submit the following. Remember there is often times a "double fulfillment" with prophecy. One is temporal, and the other is a great expansion with spiritual aspects. The following verses in Joshua deal with the temporal, while the following passages in Hebrews deal with the "spiritual expansion":

Josh 21:43 ¶ So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Josh 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.
Josh 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass

Often times CT's are accused of allegorizing or spiritualizing Scripture in regard to the OT land promises. I find it interesting though that you would have to conclude the apostles did the same thing if you use the dispensational litmus test of "wooden literal" interpretation of the OT land promises. However, the apostles were viewing the OT through the "lens" of the NT. We must, and this is key to Covenant Theology, interpret the OT in light of the NT and not the other way around as is done in dispensationalism. The following is an example of this:

Heb 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign {land,} dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, {as many descendants} AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
Heb 11:13 ¶ All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Heb 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that {country} from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better {country,} that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

The land was a shadow of much greater things to come! Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob clearly saw and desired this! They will dwell in a city "whose builder and architect is God!" This is truly a wonderful promise! It would be quite a let down if they "desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one" and are given a small plot of land in the Middle East!

I would also submit this by Kim Riddlebarger from an interview:
What about the allegation that Amillenarians do not read the Bible literally?

These allegations have great rhetorical effect (like the charge made by postmillennialists that amillennialism is inherently pessimistic), but have little or no basis in fact. I would argue that allowing the New Testament writers to interpret the Old Testament is to take the "plain sense" of the text, and that it is the dispensationalist who must take the text literalistically when they allow an Old Testament prophet to over-ride the clear teaching of the New Testament. Acts 15:15-18 is a great example of this where James quotes a passage from Amos which refers to Israel, and then applies this to the Gentiles. Is James not taking the Bible literally or "spiritualizing prophecy?"

As for the Church not existing in the OT, there are many references, some above, to all nations being blessed in Abraham. Galatians 3:8 especially : The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham. The verse specifically mentions forseeing the Gentiles justification. Also, Balaam, Job, and Melchizadek, along with the Ninevites, were not Israelites. I think God's work among the Gentiles in the OT is missed by dispensationalist as they focus on "national Israel." To be sure the Jews were given the promises and the prophets and there will be a future mass conversion of Jews as the NT says, but I think the examples of this work in the Gentile nations in the OT is a sign of the things that were to come. All these were signaling a great expansion to include all nations in the promises of Israel (see Eph. 2:11-19), not a replacement of Israel. I think this also helps to address the following statement you made:

The way I read this, it is saying that in the OT, God was dealing only with the Jews. Gentiles were not welcome.


As for the land promises you quoted, I think the following is very telling of what was ultimately in view:

Ezekiel 36: 24. "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
25. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Verse 26 is the key. I see this as a reference to the New Covenant.

One last thing... If God does have two different plans for two seperate peoples, I don't know how you get around the aforementioned Eph. 2:11-19 passage. It plainly says Gentiles are now partakers in the covenants of promise.

WEW! I hope some of this is beneficial and please feel free to challenge anything I said and ALWAYS make sure it is in line with Scripture!

[CarolLyn]

Thanks for your help Elect1, I'm still working through a lot of this, so please be patient if I misunderstand what you are saying. I think there is a lot that we agree on, but we have a different way of viewing or expressing it. For instance, I think there are often misunderstantings of what dispys. teach due to the titles that they give the dispensations. It is unfortunate that these titles can be misleading if it is not understood that the titles do not refer to a means of salvation, but rather to the way that God deals with his chosen people during any given economy. For instance, the elect were saved by grace during the dispensation of "law" just as they are now under the dispensation of "grace". "Law" was not to save them during that dispensation but rather, it actually condemned them. Note the following verses in Galations:
Galations 3:21. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.
25. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Now the way I read these verses, the elect were always saved by grace through faith. The OT law was not a means of salvation, but was a means to cause them to realize their own sinfulness to lead them to faith. So it seems to me that CT and Disp actually agree (for the most part) on this, but often get hung up on the labels used to identify the dispensations. These misunderstandings are really unfortunate.

That said, I will respond to your post. If I am misstating or misunderstanding you, please be patient. I don't have this all figured out yet.

In that we must always compare Scripture with Scripture, I would submit the following verses to aid in understanding the Romans passage to which you referred. Take note of the highlighted sections and the specific references to the expansion of the promises to the Gentiles.

Gal 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
Gal 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Ah! Here we are in Galations 3 again! :lol2 And you actually highlighted the same phrases that I would have highlighted, vs.8 "forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith". Yes, I think we agree on this. Abraham was justified by faith. The Gentiles are justified by faith. The church is one body which includes Jews, Gentiles, slave, free, male and female. But even so, males still remain male, females still remain female, Gentiles are still Gentiles, Jews still Jews, etc. We each keep our individual identity, but we are all one body in Christ's church. We are all saved by grace through faith. All receiving spiritual nourishment from the rich Root which is Jesus our Lord.

In 1 Peter, regardless of whether he is speaking to Jews or Gentiles, he addresses his crowd as God's elect. God's elect are part of the Church:

1 Pet 2:9 ¶ But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God's} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Eph 3:6 {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Who are they fellow heirs, fellow members, fellow partakers with? Who was disputing their inclusion? True Israel (elect Jews) were! This means Paul was emphasizing the Gentile's inclusion!
Yes, again I agree entirely. Jesus was a Jew. As our Lord said in John 4:22 "Salvation is of the Jews". The way I see the Romans 11 passage you made reference to is that the elect Jews were part of the original olive tree. Non-elect Jews are the branches that were broken off (due to unbelief), but the tree still remained, firmly attached to the root (which is Jesus). The wild olive tree is the Gentile-elect, which was grafted into the same root (Jesus). Now, we become one in Christ Jesus, both partaking of the same rich sap (the Holy Spirit). I admit that the sap and the Holy Spirit are not specifically mentiond here, but it all fits together with other scriptures to portray a beautiful picture of how God is working out His eternal plan for the salvation of His elect. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

In reference to the land promises not being fulfilled I would submit the following. Remember there is often times a "double fulfillment" with prophecy. One is temporal, and the other is a great expansion with spiritual aspects. The following verses in Joshua deal with the temporal, while the following passages in Hebrews deal with the "spiritual expansion":

Josh 21:43 ¶ So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Josh 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.
Josh 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass :thinking Hmm...I'll have to do some research on this. I think I recall that there were different scriptures indicating somewhat different boundaries. God clearly said that He was not going to give them all the land at once, but gradually. Also, the promise that the land would be given for an eternal possession, that they would never again be uprooted out of it. Ah, here it is:

Jeremiah 16: 14. "Therefore behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when it will no longer be said, `As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,'
15. but, `As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.' For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers.
The words "will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers are pretty clear. I don't see how it could be talking about heaven.
Ezekiel 11: 17. "Therefore say, `Thus says the Lord God, "I shall gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I shall give you the land of Israel."'I don't think heaven was ever referred to as "the landof Israel", was it?
Ezekiel 20:42. "And you will know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the land which I swore to give to your forefathers.43. "And there you will remember your ways and all your deeds, with which you have defiled yourselves; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for all the evil things that you have done.
44. "Then you will know that I am the Lord when I have dealt with you for My name's sake, not according to your evil ways or according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel," declares the Lord God.'"
Here again, it is not referred to as "promised land" but rather the "land of Israel". It seems to me that this would have to be literal Land of Israel.
Ezekiel 28:25. `Thus says the Lord God, "When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and shall manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob. 26. "And they will live in it securely; and they will build houses, plant vineyards, and live securely, when I execute judgments upon all who scorn them round about them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God."'"
Verse 26 here, referring to "building houses", etc. doesn't sound like heaven, whose "builder and maker is God".
Amos 9: 14. "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them,They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15. "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"Says the Lord your God.
And this is the one that refers to them not again being rooted out of their land which I have given them. Notice the words "not again" and the past tense of the phrase "have given them". Again, I don't see how this could be referring to heaven.

Often times CT's are accused of allegorizing or spiritualizing Scripture in regard to the OT land promises. I find it interesting though that you would have to conclude the apostles did the same thing if you use the dispensational litmus test of "wooden literal" interpretation of the OT land promises. However, the apostles were viewing the OT through the "lens" of the NT. We must, and this is key to Covenant Theology, interpret the OT in light of the NT and not the other way around as is done in dispensationalism. The following is an example of this:

Heb 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign {land,} dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
Heb 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, {as many descendants} AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
Heb 11:13 ¶ All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
Heb 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that {country} from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better {country,} that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

The land was a shadow of much greater things to come! Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob clearly saw and desired this! They will dwell in a city "whose builder and architect is God!" This is truly a wonderful promise! It would be quite a let down if they "desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one" and are given a small plot of land in the Middle East!

As I understand it, there will be a period of 1000 years during which Christ will reign on this earth. (I can come up with scriptures if you like, but will not post them here now) Then the eternal state will begin. I think the reference in Hebrews 11 to Abraham looking for a city whose builder and maker is God is referring to this eternal state which follows the Millennial Kingdom (which takes place on earth immediately following the 7 year tribulation). :)

As for the Church not existing in the OT, there are many references, some above, to all nations being blessed in Abraham. Galatians 3:8 especially : The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham. The verse specifically mentions forseeing the Gentiles justification. Also, Balaam, Job, and Melchizadek, along with the Ninevites, were not Israelites. I think God's work among the Gentiles in the OT is missed by dispensationalist as they focus on "national Israel." :scratch Weren't Job and Melchizadek prior to Israel? I don't think Jews and Gentiles were an issue prior to the birth of Jacob and the 12 patriarchs. Balaam, (although he did prophesy in favor of Israel) was actually an enemy of Israel.( See Deut. 23:3-6) Even if the church did exist in the OT, Balaam wouldn't have been a part of it. Also, regarding Nineveh, although they repented at the preaching of Jonah, they fell into sin once more and God cursed them. See Nahum ch.1. They were not God's people.Vs. 14 says regarding Niniveh " The Lord has issued a command concerning you: "Your name will no longer be perpetuated. I will cut off idol and image From the house of your gods.I will prepare your grave, For you are contemptible."

As for the land promises you quoted, I think the following is very telling of what was ultimately in view:

Ezekiel 36: 24. "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
25. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Verse 26 is the key. I see this as a reference to the New Covenant.
I agree. I think the new covenant will be in effect during the MK.

One last thing... If God does have two different plans for two seperate peoples, I don't know how you get around the aforementioned Eph. 2:11-19 passage. It plainly says Gentiles are now partakers in the covenants of promise.
Yes, now, during the church age, both Jews and Gentiles are together as "one body" which is the church. When a Jew believes in Jesus (since the cross) he becomes part of the church "body". At this time (during this dispensation), we are all one. But after the "catching up" occurs (sometimes called the rapture, referred to in 1 Thes.), then God will again begin dealing with Israel separately as a nation. During that time of the tribulation, the church (including Jews and Gentiles) will be in heaven. That's the way I see it.

WEW! I hope some of this is beneficial and please feel free to challenge anything I said and ALWAYS make sure it is in line with Scripture! If there is anything I have mentioned that I didn't give scriptures for, please let me know and I will post them.

[Elect1]

Quote:
WEW! I hope some of this is beneficial and please feel free to challenge anything I said and ALWAYS make sure it is in line with Scripture!
If there is anything I have mentioned that I didn't give scriptures for, please let me know and I will post them.

Sorry! I meant make sure I'M inline with Scripture! Sometimes I ramble! :)

In case you did not see the link I posted previously I will repost it now:
http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/
His work has really helped me.

Also, the following book is a great reference and explanation of CT even if you disagree with the position.
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/080106435X/ref=s9_asin_title_1-1966_g1/104-8556338-9696759?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0E5HPY49HTPKFRHBXN1H&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240701&pf_rd_i=507846

Hope to get back to you soon and great job!:thumb