2 Burning Questions...

[markshaker]

I have two burning questions. 1.) If the Bible says it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgment, and those who are raptured are glorified bodily and will not die…..how does that jive?

2.) In regards to this whole eternal torment argument, my only question is this. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus came as the perfect vicarious substitutive sacrifice to die and shed his blood for our sins and take our place on the cross, but He is now alive and at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us….if the wages of sin is DEATH, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus is in Heaven right now, because if the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment, wouldn’t Jesus still be “paying” for our sins right now, and actually be there for eternity?

[romans224]

I have two burning questions. 1.) If the Bible says it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgment, and those who are raptured are glorified bodily and will not die…..how does that jive?
Hebrews 9

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

While reading everything in it's entirety we see that since Christ has died for ALL sin only once. If we are of Christ we have to be dead from sin. Because the only way out of the law is through death and that death was paid for at the cross so we ourselves are now freed from from sin which brings forth death.

[romans224]

2.) In regards to this whole eternal torment argument, my only question is this. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus came as the perfect vicarious substitutive sacrifice to die and shed his blood for our sins and take our place on the cross, but He is now alive and at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us….if the wages of sin is DEATH, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus is in Heaven right now, because if the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment, wouldn’t Jesus still be “paying” for our sins right now, and actually be there for eternity?

Back to the same scripture in Hebrews 9 Death was paid, however it could not keep a hold of Christ because he was sinless according to the law. Here is an example. Say my child stole a car and was caught and put in prison, I step in and say I will take teir punishment instead so my child would be free. However since I am on trial and according to the law I am innocent of the crime I can no longer be held for the crime thus I am free also. Does it make sense?

[HeIsEnough]

If we are of Christ we have to be dead from sin.

:nod

It is the essence of baptism, symbolizing our death with Christ. In other words, God views us as having died in Christ, thus we did indeed die, and have already passed through the judgement.

[eahaddix]

I have two burning questions.

:wave Greetings, markshaker. Your second question is a good question, a question which I had wondered about as well.


2.) In regards to this whole eternal torment argument, my only question is this. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus came as the perfect vicarious substitutive sacrifice to die and shed his blood for our sins and take our place on the cross, but He is now alive and at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us….if the wages of sin is DEATH, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus is in Heaven right now, because if the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment, wouldn’t Jesus still be “paying” for our sins right now, and actually be there for eternity?

[Underlining by eahaddix]

No. The nucleus of the salvific process is God's judicial decisions, nothing more or less.

Specifically, if Christ Jesus had to pay his own first-person sin debt in eternal punishment personally or substitutionally, then he could not be raised from the dead for our justification (Romans 4:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:25;&version=31;)). So Biblical Scriptures such as 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;) represent a literal judicial substitution, not a literal transformative substitution with a literal stain of sin.

In application, the only way Christ Jesus avoided being locked in the Geenna (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1067) portion of Hell (ref. Mark 9:47-49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:47-49;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=MArk+9%3A47-49&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)) was by mixing his complete personal innocence with humanity's sinful guilt judicially (ref. Isaiah 53:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053:9;&version=31;)), thereby entering "Abraham's bosom" or the paradise (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3857) portion of Hell (ref. Luke 16:19-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31;&version=31;), cf. Luke 23:43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023:43;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Luke+23%3A43&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). Consequently, this is why Biblical Scripture states that one must be spiritually baptized into Christ Jesus's death by judicial grace individually, as opposed to the notion that Christ Jesus's unlimited atonement automatically saves the entire world by an automatic transformative act.



1.) If the Bible says it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgment, and those who are raptured are glorified bodily and will not die…..how does that jive?

It appears as though you are equivocating physical death with spiritual death (ref. John 11:25-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011:25-26%20;&version=31;)).

John 11 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011:25-26;&version=31;)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Specifically, our "eternal life" is a twofold life of physical and spiritual "eternal life." Specifically, we have "eternal life" in our spiritual "new birth" (John 5:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:24;&version=31;), cf. John 1:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:12-13;&version=31;), John 3:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3-8;&version=31;)) and "eternal life" in our future physical glorification (Titus 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:7%20;&version=31;), cf. Romans 8:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:23-25;&version=31;), 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:16-17;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:51-52;&version=31;)). However, while Christ Jesus's victory at the Roman cross gives us both forms of "eternal life," we do not receive both forms of "eternal life" at the same time (ref. 2 Corinthians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%204:16;&version=31;)). Hence, we can die and not die at the same time.

Does this answer you second question? It appears as though everyone is interpreting your second question differently. :scratch

[tenn4ever]

:nod

It is the essence of baptism, symbolizing our death with Christ. In other words, God views us as having died in Christ, thus we did indeed die, and have already passed through the judgement.

:thumb

[Buzzardhut]

I have two burning questions. 1.) If the Bible says it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgment, and those who are raptured are glorified bodily and will not die…..how does that jive?

2.) In regards to this whole eternal torment argument, my only question is this. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus came as the perfect vicarious substitutive sacrifice to die and shed his blood for our sins and take our place on the cross, but He is now alive and at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us….if the wages of sin is DEATH, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus is in Heaven right now, because if the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment, wouldn’t Jesus still be “paying” for our sins right now, and actually be there for eternity?
1) The Rapture will be a quick translation from death to life
2) Jesus' was/is sinless so He does not have to keep paying for His own Sin, Jesus placed His Blood on the Mercy Seat in the Tabernacle in Heaven, it represents His full payment for Sin.

[Saved by Grace_06]

I have two burning questions. 1.) If the Bible says it is appointed to man to die once and then the judgment, and those who are raptured are glorified bodily and will not die…..how does that jive?

2.) In regards to this whole eternal torment argument, my only question is this. If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus came as the perfect vicarious substitutive sacrifice to die and shed his blood for our sins and take our place on the cross, but He is now alive and at the right hand of the Father ever making intercession for us….if the wages of sin is DEATH, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus is in Heaven right now, because if the wages of sin was eternal suffering and torment, wouldn’t Jesus still be “paying” for our sins right now, and actually be there for eternity?

Those are really good questions, I think! Here's what I think.

1. When the Bible says "it is appointed once for men to die" it is speaking of mankind as a whole and not everyone indivisually. How do I know? Well, Enoch and Elias didn't die and those in the rapture will not either. However, most of man - that is - human kind as a whole, will die. Some people will be living when Jesus comes back and will not see death. As the Lord himself said...If you live and beleive in me, you will never die."

2. Ah, another mystery from the Bible. Johh Piper asked it this way: "How could one man, in a matter of hours (3 hours), drain the cup of God's wrath that would have taken an eternity to pour out on me?" I didn't hear Piper's answer, but my guess is that since Christ himself is eternal...OK forget it. I don't know this one.

[Everlasting]

Man died everyday before the time of Jesus Christ. We as believers who continue in hope and faith, will be raptured at God's appointed time.

Man's death before the time of Christ, was due to the lack of the Holy Spirit, that dwells in us.

The Salvation that we can attain, is obtained from God the Father and Jesus Christ.

:rolleyes


Everlasting,



Moon over Key Biscayne

[eahaddix]

Man's death before the time of Christ, was due to the lack of the Holy Spirit, that dwells in us.

Hi, Everlasting. Can you clarify this statement for me?