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Heffer Wolfe
January 18th, 2009, 06:41 AM
That is why it is difficult to be in God's hand.

Then what does Jesus mean with this, regarding believers?


I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:28-30)

Anddra
January 18th, 2009, 08:47 AM
http://www.buzzardhut.net/Watch/

:thumb

KaiafromBergen
January 18th, 2009, 11:38 AM
A bit more from Jack Kelly on the 10 Virgins

http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/understanding-the-olivet-discourse-parables-part-2/#more-4185

More at the link . . .


The Parable Of The 10 Virgins

“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’


“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ ” ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’


“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.


“Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’


“But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’


“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matt. 25:1-13)

The clearest indication of the Tribulation believer’s exposure is found in the Parable of the 10 Virgins. The timing of this parable is identified as just following the 2nd Coming, since the phrase “at that time” refers back the the day and hour of His Coming (Matt. 24:36). The 10 virgins are all on Earth waiting for the Bridegroom (Jesus) to return. All 10 have both lamps and oil at the beginning, indicating that all were once saved. (When oil is used symbolically it always refers to the Holy Spirit.) The five who ran out of oil symbolize Tribulation believers who let their faith lapse by not remaining spiritually awake and alert. At the end they wake up, discover their peril, and rush about trying to renew their faith. While they’re working to get back into a right relationship with Jesus, He returns and the door to salvation is closed to them forever. Remember, all 10 virgins are caught sleeping when He returns. They all behaved badly. It’s the oil that distinguishes one group from the other, not their behavior.

Some try to make this into a parable about the Church, always symbolized by a bride. There is a similarity between virgin and bride due to the fact that in those days brides were nearly always virgins. But so were all of their unmarried friends. The Greek word simply means “someone who has never had sexual intercourse”. When used in connection with the Church the word is always singular, such as in 2 Cor 11:2. “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.” Paul spoke of one virgin. Here there are 10 of them. While the word has often been translated as bridesmaids in this parable, these 10 virgins are never called the Bride.

Through out the parable, no bride is ever mentioned, and certainly could not be excluded by her husband from the wedding banquet, or Seudas Mitzvah, a festive meal that follows the wedding ceremony. None of these 10 made it to the actual marriage ceremony, oil or not, so none of them can be the bride. The timing, the grammar, and the context all testify against interpreting this parable as a warning to the Church. The 10 virgins represent Tribulation survivors trying to gain entrance to the Messianic Kingdom, or Millennium. Some will have maintained their faith and be welcomed in. the others will not and will be refused admittance.

The parable ends with the warning, “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.” (Matt 25:13) This is the fourth such warning in the span of 23 verses, all dealing with the time of His 2nd coming. Tribulation believers must remain alert at all times and guard their position carefully. It will take a tremendous amount of faith to sustain oneself through this time, and each believer is responsible for keeping his or her own faith strong.

Some try to say that since the Lord warned them about the day and hour being unknown, He must be talking about the Rapture. After all, won’t people be able to count off 1260 days from the Abomination of Desolation to the 2nd Coming? It turns out that it’s not quite that easy. The Great Tribulation will last 1260 days, it’s true, and immediately afterward the Sun will be darkened, the Moon not give its light, and stars will fall from the sky. (Matt. 24:29) This will be the signal that the Great Tribulation has ended.

Next the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. The Greek word for sign means that a symbol or token will appear alerting people of a coming event. Sometime after the sign appears, people will see Him coming on the clouds. So there’s a sequence of events that will take place, one following the other. But we’re not told the duration of any one of them. Imagine the suspense that will create on Earth, knowing that the End has come but not knowing exactly when the Lord will actually return. By the signs, they’ll know He’s due, but they won’t know the day or hour.

Daniel 12:12 says that 1335 days will elapse between the beginning of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennium. Somewhere in the 75 days between the last day of the Tribulation (#1260) and the first day of the Kingdom (#1335), the Lord will return, but nobody will know exactly when.

Personally, I think that the 10 virgins represent people on Earth who will awaken when they see His sign in the sky, and will know that the Bridegroom is coming. That’s when some of them will realize that their faith has lapsed and will begin frantically trying to prepare themselves. But alas, He comes before they’re ready and it’s too late.

resurrection torchlight
January 18th, 2009, 05:10 PM
I agree with what some others have said.

Within the local church there are those who are so-called believers- the letters to the seven churches in revelation speak of them. They may call themselves 'Christians" but in reality they are only hearers of the word and not doers. The new testament is full of commentary on these false believers. These are the foolish virgins without oil. Oil= the Holy Spirit. These are those who walk according to the flesh and not the spirit, they are not ready or prepared for the return of the groom. The wise virgins are those who carry extra oil with them- they are walking in the Spirit and are ready and prepared for the coming of the groom. When the groom calls to them- the wise virgins go into the marriage feast. But the foolish don't have enough oil to continue in order to meet the groom. The point of the parable is the same point as many of the other parables (the sower, the ten talents, the stewards) be a doer of the word and not a hearer only and you will inherit the kingdom. If you do not act upon the word- you are not walking in the Spirit and you will be shut out of the kingdom.

RT

Buzzardhut
January 18th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Buzz,

You/he admit up front that "oil" usually means "Spirit." Then you/he admit that YOU/he don't interpret it that way in Mt 25. That is what is known as "private interpretation" which you/he assert is not biblical neither for those who wrote it nor for those who read it. The interpretation is invalid right from the get-go, by your/his own admission -- as well as by mine!

oil = spirit is irrelevant to the story
They claim they had oil, Jesus said they didn't
I'll go with Jesus' interpretation

that is what's important

Biblenuggetlady
January 18th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Kaia -- JM is a Calvinist. That prejudices his view toward the 2nd coming because their theology is normally incompatible with dispensationalism. Dispensationalism says the church is taken out pretrib via the rapture and God brings in "all Israel" during the trib.

Covenant theology says the church is Israel; therefore, we will be here for the tribulation; and so the parable of the virgins describes the 2nd coming of Christ, not the rapture.

Like I said, the parable of the virgins just does NOT fit with the 2nd coming judgments. Do you think it does? Where is the "casting out into outer darkness" for those whom Christ doesn't know? What would you suggest that the "oil," the "discriminator" in this parable, stands for? Did the foolish virgins really lose their salvation? Can anyone, according to scripture, lose their salvation?

BTW, the "door" is often misunderstood, too. The "door" is the one in Rev 4:1 that is opened to John before the tribulation events unfold and it is closed when the bride has been raptured pretrib.

Do you see what I mean by "uninspired?"

skypair

For the record, MacArthur teaches a pretrib rapture. I would not call him uninspired either, where do you get that idea? Of the last days pastors that are out there, he is among those that are solid.

The virgins are bridesmaids, not the bride.

There is one bride and she is taken at the rapture, the tribulation saints are not the bride and will have a different position in the MK than the bride does.

There is no partial rapture either, (posts removed) the Bride is covered in the Blood of Jesus and are raptured in whole, not limb by limb. It's a promise to the Church, not a reward.

skypair, get a copy of Footsteps of the Messiah, there is a whole section that explains the parables. They are kingdom parables.

The marriage supper is where they are either let in, or not permitted in. The marriage supper takes place after the marriage. The parables are showing who is going into the feast, and who will not. It is those who are believers or not believers who come to faith or not, during the tribulation period.

Biblenuggetlady
January 18th, 2009, 05:43 PM
I agree with what some others have said.

Within the local church there are those who are so-called believers- the letters to the seven churches in revelation speak of them. They may call themselves 'Christians" but in reality they are only hearers of the word and not doers. The new testament is full of commentary on these false believers. These are the foolish virgins without oil. Oil= the Holy Spirit. These are those who walk according to the flesh and not the spirit, they are not ready or prepared for the return of the groom. The wise virgins are those who carry extra oil with them- they are walking in the Spirit and are ready and prepared for the coming of the groom. When the groom calls to them- the wise virgins go into the marriage feast. But the foolish don't have enough oil to continue in order to meet the groom. The point of the parable is the same point as many of the other parables (the sower, the ten talents, the stewards) be a doer of the word and not a hearer only and you will inherit the kingdom. If you do not act upon the word- you are not walking in the Spirit and you will be shut out of the kingdom.

RT

Exactly, they are called to the marriage feast, NOT the marriage. Again, I recommend Footsteps of the Messiah. A whole section is on the parables.

Biblenuggetlady
January 18th, 2009, 05:55 PM
http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/comm_topic.cfm?AuthorID=24&commInfo=35&groupID=40&commTopic=Matthew&SeriesOrder=149

Click on Mt 25:1-13 for J Vernon McGee's audio on this.

Buzzardhut
January 18th, 2009, 06:00 PM
http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/comm_topic.cfm?AuthorID=24&commInfo=35&groupID=40&commTopic=Matthew&SeriesOrder=149

Click on Mt 25:1-13 for J Vernon McGee's audio on this.

McGee! :thumb

icebear
January 18th, 2009, 06:03 PM
oh, another :thumb for dear McGee!