Hell doesn't really exist?

[Ingersoll]

But if God is all-powerful, then he should be able to convince them either way, regardless if they want to believe or not.

[funmudder]

Why would God want to force, trick or beg someone to love Him?

How would that be giving us a real choice, or real free will?

Evidence of God is everywhere you look. You either choose to see the ming boggling complexity and order of life and the cosmos, or you choose to believe everything is a complete random freak accident.

You can lead a horse to water, but ya can't make him drink.

[Ingersoll]

You seem to be confused about the definiton of convince.

If you convince someone, they then understand your meaning and agree with it. That wouldn't be a trick.

And I won't get into a discussion about the evidence of God, it's unrelated and I doubt I'd convince you anyway. It would just turn out to be rambling back in forth with basically the same message, which is kind of what we're doing now.

[funmudder]

You seem to be confused by the definition of "free will"

:idunno

[Brokenjar]

Well, being an agnostic, I'll believe in hell once any factual evidence is given.

If there is a god (or gods), though, I don't see why he would need to have such a place in existance. If he's all-powerful, then he should be able to convince any evil doers to smarten up.

And as for Satan, again, if God is truly all-powerful, then he should have destroyed him a long time ago.
What if they were made to be destroyed? What if that was their purpose? What if Satan was allowed to remain for a reason? Think about it.
We're talking about a God who made time and space. A forth dimensional object. Beginning, end, and now. Each has it's time, place, and purpose.
Romans 9:14-23
14. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15. For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'

17. For scripture says to Pharaoh: " I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

22. What if God choosing to show His wrath and make His power know, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath - prepared for destruction?
23. What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory...

[Ingersoll]

You seem to be confused by the definition of "free will"

:idunno

It would be the will of the evil doer to believe or reject, but God should be able to make him see the light and understand.

What if they were made to be destroyed? What if that was their purpose? What if Satan was allowed to remain for a reason? Think about it.

If God made evil people on purpose, and just to destroy them, that's pretty cruel. Satan has no reason to exist, either. It's just a scare tactic to me.


15. For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'

According to this, it seems that God will only forgive people he wants to forgive, instead of everyone.

[funmudder]

It would be the will of the evil doer to believe or reject, but God should be able to make him see the light and understand.



There is that word "make" again.

You can be surrounded by a world of bright light, you can feel the heat of the light, you can be told the light is there by thousands, millions of people, but you can not be made to open your eyes if you do not want to see the light or want to believe it's there.

Someone forcing/making your eyes open to see the light is the opposite of free will.

[Ingersoll]

*facepalm*

Look, if I were to tell you that the world is flat, you obviously wouldn't believe me, right? Well what if we were to walk to it's end and see that there is a drop-off point and that it is indeed flat?

Stupid example, I know, but would you consider that being forced to believe in it? No, you were merely convinced.

We might as well drop this, it's getting old.

[Rickamedic]

Now that's FUNNY......

[funmudder]

yep. It is circular, as there is no argument that would satisfy your position because you want God to prove to you He exists on your terms.
Proof of a God by being forced to see something that you do not really believe you can or want to see, so instead you lash out in a hostile manner at those who were willing to be 'convinced' without force.

:wave