Hell doesn't really exist?

[Ingersoll]

Your idea of "force" is tragically skewed. I've already explained what I meant by convince, yet you ignore it.

And you don't actually think I believe the world is flat, do you? It was just an example.

Edit: Exactly how am I "lashing out"?

[funmudder]

To be convinced, you would actually have to make me walk to the edge and look over, now wouldn't you?

What if I didn't want to walk over? What if I did not want to look?

Nope. Lets say I choose to stay right over here continuing to believe the world is round because no one has convinced me otherwise.

Are you seeing the point?
There has to be a willingness at some point for the person to actually be open to looking and being convinced. No one can be forced to believe something against their will.

I could be shown a thousand pictures of the edge from every angle, listen to a thousand testimonies of those who have looked over the edge themselves and it would make no difference if I did not want to be convinced. "Photoshop" I could say, and delve into the amazing things magicians have made appear to disappear, how anyones eyes could be fooled, so how do they REALLY know they were looking over the edge?

[Ingersoll]

That makes perfect sense, but what I'm saying is that God should be able to elighten them enough so that they realize how foolish it is to ignore such evidence and that they begin to understand.

"There has to be a willingness at some point for the person to actually be open to looking and being convinced."

God should be able to reach that point.

[funmudder]

Agreed.

The problem is, many people do not want to be enlightened. Oh they say they do, but the evidence is in their actions not their words. To someone truly seeking, they would be studying what it is that all these religious people believe in, yus? How can you say you absolutely do not believe in something you have never looked into?

I've read of a great many scholars that set out to disprove the Bible. For assorted reasons, but primarily to hold Christianity as a myth that sophisticated, educated people should have nothing to do with. Only to find, after years of deep study and searching, they themselves wholly and completely given over to the Christian God they once refused to believe in.

Take anyone of us here on the board that believe. We were not just born believers. Each of us had a moment that we stepped outside of our own understanding and really searched for that something bigger we felt was out there.

We had to choose to walk over to that edge and see for ourselves. God put it there, sent us people to tell us it was there, wrote a guide map on how to get there, but the choice was still there. We just had to choose to go look.

[Ingersoll]

I'm glad that we can agree... somewhat, but as for people not wanting to be enlightened, come on. Of course they do. It's just that they have a hard time when all that's there is a book. And as for "stepping outside our own understanding", well that's just ridiculous. The only way we can step outside our understanding is by doing research and proving new things. Reading the Bible won't prove anything to me other than it's an interesting story.

[funmudder]

Stepping outside our own understanding IS doing research. It is putting aside what you were taught as a child and seeking to find out on your own. Not all research and study is done in a book.

No. Real enlightenment is an active seeking and searching. It can't be found in a cliff note version. You can be educated in Latin, but not enlightened to the nuances of the meanings. I can say I want to be enlightened to understand the inner workings of Tesla's perpetual motion machine, but unless I actually apply myself to seek the connections, I will be a dabbler, a fan at best. Reading books here and there about Nickolai will not enable me to understand the cryptic notes on his charts.

The Bible is much more than a collection of books, it's a flat out miracle it is even in existence. There are at least 40 different human hands that wrote the words penned in that collection of 66 books, they were written over the course of 2700 years. Yet somehow the same underlying message is there, it's fluid, consistent, and has not ever once been proved wrong. Not in Prophecy or in any other way.
Look at any/every other book in existence, and you will not find anything remotely like it. This is why it is so fascinating to unbelieving scholars, they just can't figure out how it was done. It's so perfect, down to the smallest nuance.
We can't even get our elementary school text books to say the same thing from one school year to the next, especially if there two different authors.
Now take 40 men, most of whom never knew each other or even lived during the same time period. Perfect consistency.
That makes it a bit more interesting than just a collection of stories eh?

Get into the details of the prophecies, when they were made, and the exacting detail of when they were carried out, always to the surprise of those living in the times. Mind boggling to study. Stunning to see the ones still to come.

A true seeker of enlightenment will actively seek that which he is after, not just say they want it.

[Ingersoll]

It is putting aside what you were taught as a child and seeking to find out on your own.

I was taught Christianity as a child, then I found out my beliefs on my own.

The Bible is much more than a collection of books, it's a flat out miracle it is even in existence..

That's just your opinion.

Yet somehow the same underlying message is there, it's fluid, consistent, and has not ever once been proved wrong.

It has not ever once been proved true either.

[Biblenuggetlady]

Non-Believers are only allowed to post in "Belief Systems" threads as agreed to when signing up.

[24]Christian and Family Friendly - This board is a family-friendly Christian Fellowship board. We strive to provide a place for Christians to fellowship and congregate without fear of being harassed from people with opposing views. As a result, individuals who are not Christians, are required to keep their posting in the apologetics area (Beliefs Systems) of the board.

[Ingersoll]

It doesn't say that it has to be the Beliefs Board. It just says "Apologetic Area."

[24]Christian and Family Friendly - This board is a family-friendly Christian Fellowship board. We strive to provide a place for Christians to fellowship and congregate without fear of being harassed from people with opposing views. As a result, individuals who are not Christians, are required to keep their posting in the apologetics area of the board.

[funmudder]

I was taught Christianity as a child, then I found out my beliefs on my own.

Thats too bad. I wonder if you are a part of the huge generation of kids that were taught Bible 'stories' instead of Bible history?
The same history that named people, places and dates that archaeologists are finding in the exact locations ancient Hebrew texts said they would be.
It's not just a list of supernatural happenings it is an actual history book.

That's just your opinion.

It's not just my opinion, it is many peoples opinion. :nod


It has not ever once been proved true either.


Wow. Now THAT is an opinion, and an uninformed one at that.
Again, historians and archaeologists are digging up and finding more proofs everyday. Just last month another ancient non-religious parchment turned up at a dig that was a receipt given by the chief eunuch of Solomon that was specifically mentioned by name in scripture during the time temple was being built. Seriously, use the search feature just on this site and it will take you to a plethora of news stories on all sorts things science is finding that lines up with what scripture told us actually happened thousands of years ago. The mounds of sulfur (brimstone) and the two cities it devoured. Up until just a few years ago "science" was telling us Sodom and Gomorrah never even existed, now they are astounded at the remains found under these unexplained piles of ancient sulfur. Go figure.


There is evidence and proof all over. You just have to choose to see it.