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kenod

July 21st, 2007, 09:21 AM

Pure semantics. This is purely your (and Latter Rain's) interpretation of scripture. So shall we disregard anything and everything that doesn't agree with your/their view? And if the spiritual gifts are still appropriate for today - then why is Mike Bickle making so many false prophecies?

I am not a supporter of Mike Bickle, and I do not believe he is a prophet. However, I do believe that he, and those at IHOP, are just as much Christians as you and me, and I think we can all learn something from each other.

So does that mean we must also throw out any Google or You Tube video that depicts Mike Bickle prophesying falsely?

Definitely not ... but, it must be taken in complete context and judged fairly. If he's wrong, then he's wrong. I've got no argument with that.

With all due respect Kenod, why must we believe only what you've said and nothing else, i.e., Wikipedia, apologetic websites, Google video, You Tube, etc?

Oh please don't believe what I say ... it is just my personal understanding. If you can't see it in the Bible, then don't believe it. (BTW, I am a contributor to Wikipedia :) )

I am a great believer in checking everything I read on an "apologetics" website with the original source. I have seen too many misunderstandings and misrepresentations to just accept everything at face value.

It's clear that Latter Rain threw out Dispensationalism a long time ago - their reason for being unable to rightly divide the Word of Truth, which leaves a lot to be desired.

There are many who see the "Latter Rain" as the Pentecostal/charismatic movement ... and many of those are Scofield dispensationalists (like me!)

Matthew 7:16........... you shall know them by their fruit.

(Disclaimer: PLEASE NOTE : All that is said on this particular post is said without any hint of strife or sarcasm).

I appreciate that.

BTW, I'd appreciate it if you would answer the questions on my previous post.

Thanks.

I'm not sure that a debate of the Scriptures will be that helpful. All I can say is that we know God placed the five ministries and the nine spiritual gifts in the original Church. I just can't see where He took them away. If you can, then you go with that.

Personally, I see these things in the Scriptures, and I have seen them in operation, so it will be a hard job to persuade me they are wrong. Of course we must try the spirits because not everyone is what they claim to be.

Christy

July 23rd, 2007, 05:10 AM

I do believe that he, and those at IHOP, are just as much Christians as you and me, and I think we can all learn something from each other.

I agree with you : Mike Bickle is a christian, albeit one that is in error and what we can learn from that is not to go down the same path. My wish is for people like these to see their error and repent. And the point is not to look at man but to God.

I am a great believer in checking everything I read on an "apologetics" website with the original source.

Ditto. Some deception or error is more subtle and vague though and many people can't see it for what it is.

Definitely not ... but, it must be taken in complete context and judged fairly

Well if it doesn't tie in with God-given scripture - then how fair is fair?

Oh please don't believe what I say ... it is just my personal understanding

I know.

and many of those are Scofield dispensationalists (like me!)

Can you please elaborate on that?

All I can say is that we know God placed the five ministries and the nine spiritual gifts in the original Church

The keyword here being "original". That was to build the foundation of the church, to confirm it. The Jews always required a sign and still do to this very day, but Jesus said that the only sign he'll give us is the "Sign of Jonah". The first Pentecost began in Israel, so shall the 2nd one as depicted in Acts 2 and Revelation 6. "First the Jew, then the Gentile". There are however 3 gifts that still remain : Faith, Hope & Love, with Love being eternal as God is Love. You will notice that when the Old Testament ended there was approximately a 400 year period of silence, until the New Testament commenced with John the Baptist being raised up by God. The Canon of Scripture is complete - it has all the prophecy, revelation, etc that we need to live healthy, righteous christian lives.

kenod

July 23rd, 2007, 06:18 AM

I agree with you : Mike Bickle is a christian, albeit one that is in error and what we can learn from that is not to go down the same path. My wish is for people like these to see their error and repent. And the point is not to look at man but to God.

The way I look at it, the Bible is infallible but neither your understanding nor mine... nor Mike Bickle's ... is infallible. Not one of us has a perfect understanding of God's Word. Sometimes I think we confuse "difference" and "deception".

Can you please elaborate on that?

Your question related to "Scofield dispensationalism". I was referring to C. I. Scofield (of the Scofield Study Bible) who was one of the greatest influences in helping the Church come to a widespread understanding of the pre-tribulation rapture.

His understanding of the end times was the rapture, followed by the tribulation, during which time the Gospel would be received by the elect Jews. He taught the restoration of national Israel early in the 20th century. He did not believe in "replacement theology", nor does Mike Bickle (here (http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=1000010002)) ... nor did William Branham.

The Latter Rain terminology is used in different ways - there are those who take it in the direction of Kingdom Now/Dominion theology, which teaches the Church gaining political control. Again Mike Bickle does not believe this, although he feels that Christians can contribute to the political process in helping to promote social justice. So do I ... but I don't think we will be very successful!

William Branham expressly distanced himself from the Latter Rain movement - he taught that the LR was a spiritual move of God among the Church leading up to the rapture. I believe he is right although I know there are others who believe it applies to Israel (including Scofield btw!)

I see you are a cessasionist with regards to the spiritual gifts God placed in the Church. It is frequently debated so I won't take it any further except to say that for myself, I have Scripture plus personal experience, so I am confident where I'm standing.

Christy

July 23rd, 2007, 06:49 AM

Again Mike Bickle does not believe this, although he feels that Christians can contribute to the political process in helping to promote social justice.

I don't think social justice can be achieved on any pertinent level in today's society. History is littered with this type of thing - The Anabaptists being just one such example, who tried righteous governance in the 1600s which didn't work. The unrighteous refuse to live in a just/righteous society, one simply cannot force this on sinners. (and by that I don't mean that Mike Bickle is). It (a just society) will only come to fruition once judgment by the Lord has been exacted which will bring in millenial rule .

In the New Testament we see that Simon was a Zealot, meaning he wanted to overthrow the current Roman government and replace it with a Jewish one. It is probably for this very reason that he started following Jesus initially - there was confusion among the disciples in thinking that Jesus was going to set up His own government, that He came to overthrow Rome - he didn't understand that Jesus came first and foremost to die for our sins upon the cross.

Simon was looking to install social justice. But social justice will only prevail when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. Our main aim as christians isn't to conform to this world and it's systems, but to preach the saving Grace of Jesus Christ, the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

John 4:24 states that we are to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Worshipping God encompasses everything in our everyday lives and not give heed to seducing spirits. 1 Timothy 4:1.

After all, we have God's Spirit to assist us with our daily walk with Him:

Power of the Highest - Luke 1:35
Spirit of Christ - Romans 8:9; 1 Peter 1:11
Spirit of life - Romans 8:2
Spirit of wisdom - Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17
Spirit of counsel - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of understanding - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of knowledge - Isaiah 11:2
Spirit of truth - John 14:17; John 15:26
Spirit of the fear of the Lord - Isaiah 11:2

As christians we are to practice social justice on a personal level, uphold the laws of the land as the Bible tells us that no government has come into being without the consent of Almighty God.

Lexie

July 23rd, 2007, 11:43 AM

Mike Bickle/Bob Jones/Rick Joyner/C Peter Wagner are latter rain, they teach it a little differently. Mike Bickles Joseph company, is moving in the direction of the post trib, contemplative, market place, emergent church. They are dominionist/Kingdom now and believe they are restoring the tabernacle of David, and will be taking back the wealth. They teach the wealth will be in KC, and it will be a city of refuge, like the one in the OT, in the trib.

The Joseph Company is a group of men and women with the heart, character and anointing of Joseph. People who have been prepared by God to be to our generation as Joseph was to his, with focus on preservation of life and the awareness of God-ordained transfers of wealth and power.

http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=23144

Joseph Company founder Bob Fraser calls those who take money from the wicked the "treasure bringers" ("providers" in Wagner's scheme shown below). According to Fraser, "The Treasure Bringers are those with an anointing from God to facilitate this massive wealth-transfer." "They are spiritual 'Robin Hoods.' Their greatest joy is plundering the wealth of the world for their Lord." Now that's a religion that's easy to sell

http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/

Any study of the Tabernacle of David will show that there were really two tabernacles.* One tabernacle dealt with a kingly anointing and one tabernacle dealt with the priestly anointing.* The offices of the king and priest were separate in the Old Testament yet brought together in the New Testament.* The kingly anointing refers to government, rule, dominion and authority whereas the priestly anointing points to reconciliation, intercession and worship.

The order of worship established in David's tabernacle replaced the worship found in the Tabernacle of Moses.* It was a type and shadow pointing to the New Testament.* During the time of these two tabernacles an order of worship was established to minister unto the Lord.* Once this was accomplished King David went out with this army and expanded the kingdom.*

The place described above is like a strategic communication center and an armory.* It becomes a five fold ministry center or an apostolic equipping center.* The name is not so much the important thing as much as it is that the five fold church leaders in a city pray, work together to equip the believers to do the work of the ministry.**The Moravians who launched a 24 hour a day watch that lasted for over 100 years had a motto.* That motto was, no one works unless someone prays ("The Lost Art of Intercession" by Jim Goll, page 123).* This small church that committed themselves to prayer, launched our modern day missionary movement.This is what I see coming forth in this Apostolic Reformation.* The Tabernacle of David will be set up so that the rest of mankind can seek the Lord.

http://www.watchmanministries.org/tabernacle_of_david.htm

Rick Joyner talks about a war inside the church itself. People from the foreunner latter rain doctrine, claim to be Elijah, Spirit Elijah, or the spirit of other OT saints like Phineas, Deborah, Joseph, ect. They teach the restoration of all things teaching, similar to George Warnock, http://www.meatindueseason.org/warnock/warnock-writings.html which is similar to the Mormons Prophet, Joseph Smith, restoration teaching..

Hamon’s doctrine concerning the office of the prophet is summed up in this following statement: “Church prophets function in all the ministries of the Old Testament prophets, as well as the New Testament gift of the prophet standing in the role of Christ, the Prophet.” (“Prophets and Personal Prophecy God’s Prophetic Voice Today p. 52)

Hamon
Then continually speak out loud what God has spoken to you. That is called making prophetic proclamations and apostolic decrees.

Prophetically proclaim and confess boldly your prophetic promises with heart faith conviction. Apostolically decree what God has declared in His Logos and Rhema words to you.

A 5 fold prayer to be filled with Elijah
"Dear Lord,
We ask that you pour out your blessings on the following ministries and we thank you*Lord for your anointed teachers. May every person who uses these resources be blessed and filled with the*Spirit and Power of Elijah, just as you filled John the Baptist with it.

------------------------------------------
"Rev." Frank. W. Sandford, a magnetic little man who had been an able baseball player, founded the Holy Ghost and Us Society, built some gilt-domed frame houses on a hilltop which he called "Shiloh." He named himself "Elijah," claimed he had the ear of the Holy Ghost, collected money in abundance from 1,000 followers. Sandford staged cures and claimed he raised the dead, but at least 20 people died without medical care at Shiloh, and "Elijah" was thrice tried for manslaughter. He was convicted of nothing, however, until 1911, when he returned from a world voyage on a leaky schooner. Six followers had died of scurvy, exposure or starvation. Tried for manslaughter, Sandford was sentenced to ten years in Atlanta Penitentiary, was released after six, then disappeared from public sight.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,772039,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

William Branham

Elijah is for Israel not for the church

“Trying to keep you from seeing the real meaning of the Word, ...See, he's [Satan] interpreting it, saying it means this. God said, “I promised in the last days I'd send you MALACHI 4.” IT DON'T HAVE TO BE INTERPRETED; HE DID IT. He said, “And as it was in the days of Lot, the world will be in a Sodom condition; and that time I will reveal the Son of man by it exactly.” WE GOT all kinds of IMPERSONATIONS and everything else of it, but WE GOT THE REAL ONE TOO.” (God of This Evil Age - 08/01/65m)

“Friends, THIS IS THE FULFILLMENT OF MALACHI 4, St. Luke 17, St. John 15, Revelations 10, so many prophecies that can be pinned exactly to this day” (Events made Clear By Prophecy - 08/01/65e)

Over and over Branham pinpointed it would be him, his day that the fulfillment would be so. If we look at how Jesus stated a fulfillment there is a clear difference. For example he said when reading Isa.61 in Luke 4:17-21 “Today, this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing this,” and it was.

Branham's followers identify him as the prophet Elijah of Malachi 4 and the seventh angel of Revelation 10. “The Word of the Lord has promised that He would send to the earth once again the spirit of Elijah in the form of that End Time Messenger who was the Angel to the Seventh Church Age in these final closing days of our time. We believe firmly that this promise was fulfilled in... William Marrion Branham.” (The Revelation of the Seven Seals, Introduction, p. 19)

‘He was Elijah the prophet, the seventh angelic messenger to the Laodicean Church Age (Footprints on the Sands of Time, p. 620).

Speaking of himself, Branham said, “...we are promised a return of that Spirit [Elijah] just before the end-time. He won't start another church, because there is no more church ages to come... because the Laodicea Church Age is the last age, and the messenger of the Seventh Angel,... is the fellow that is going to reveal, by the Holy Spirit, all of these mysterious things.... Notice. This last message of the last church age is not a reformer, he is a PROPHET!” (The Seven Seals, pp. 144, 45).

He was right, Laodicea is the last, but he was wrong that he was the messenger of it and it never says Elijah is the messenger to the church; Elijah* is the messenger to Israel. And it does not say the spirit of Elijah would come but Elijah himself. This is very important for the correct interpretation. Whether one believes the angels of the church are really angels or human messengers, it does not matter on this point.

Today we have new Jeremiahs, Josephs, Joshuas, Spirit of Zerubbabel, spirit of Elijah, new apostle Paul’s, and with these new copies of the prophets come new manifestations of the spirit, new demonstrations of power, the New wine of a New truth and with it a new Jesus. We are told by these prophets that before Christ comes, the Manchild, is to be ‘born’ into the earth, god’s glory will manifest in the church, a new messenger, a new corporate group like John the Baptist comes to prepare the way. A company of prophets emerges “in the spirit of Elijah.” Spiritualizing texts and events of Scripture accompany the new revelation whispered in many peoples ears.

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain26.htm

Theosophy, Elijah, and Psychology
To borrow a technique from Elijah House, we must look at the roots. The roots of
inner healing” are the teachings of Agnes Sanford and they are totally corrupt. Her
teachings include many occultic practices and are unquestionably straight from the
New Age” movement.

We cannot separate the teachings of Sandford with Sanford, because they are so
entwined. Agnes Sanford once suggested to John Sandford that he “close some of his
spiritual centers or his psychic doors”, to which he replied: “Why don’t you try to open
some of yours?” Like Mormonism, a high percentage of Elijah House teachings are
biblically based. Because of the nature of error that is coupled with the truth, the entire
body of teaching must be rejected altogether. There is not one other reasonable
alternative.

http://unjobs.org/authors/john-sandford

A latter rain prophecy with threats for not giving money or breaking the OT law

judgment is coming to America. Those that join with you and pray will be spared and the missiles will only be duds it will not harm them. The people that are a blessing to you YAHUVEH and YAHUSHUA will bless. The People that curse and mock the messages I have given you to warn before it is too late. I YAHUVEH and YAHUSHUA will see that these will go without food or shelter and the missiles will come where they live and the missiles will not be duds.

I have sent you forth for years now and send you as MY "Elijah of New" to the widows of Zarephath in America and around the world and they knew not they were destitute for the time had not come but now it will soon be upon them. The ones in the store that did not like you and did not pray with you, nor help you, instead mocked the messages I have given you will be those that will suffer when the evil befalls this earth in a way it has not been shown before.

Only those with spiritual eyes and ears will even hear you warning the troops on the walls I have told you to assemble. Do not concern yourself with those that have rebelled against the truths I have had you speak forth. Do not be concerned how many people will stop supporting you financially for I shall bless those that bless you and curse those that have cursed you and rise up others to be help to you and not a hindrance. This ministry is not named after a man or woman but rather brings YAHUVEH the Glory even in the name.

This ministry has not spoken forth words for itching ears but rather for Holy ears that want to be pleasing and obedient unto YAHUVEH as Enoch and Elijah of old walked, so shall those that listen and obey and those pleasing YAHUVEH and shall be called YAHUSHUA's Bride. I YAHUVEH am not sending MY Son to catch away the Churches but rather the Bride of YAHUSHUA who are the first fruits. There are requirements to be YAHUSHUA's Bride. I YAHUVEH have told you audibly, "YAHUSHUA is not coming for a disobedient Bride." Remember the 5 wise virgins with oil in their lamps? Remember the 5 foolish ones disobeyed. Both were warned the Bridegroom cometh. Both waited. The Bride will receive their glorified bodies and hardly will the world take notice as she is caught away and prepared with marching orders how to help the guests and protect the guests who were not fit to be called the Bride, for the guests did not go the extra miles it takes in obedience and Holiness forsaking the things of this world for the sake of the Kingdom of YAHUVEH.

The guests love the Bridegroom but not enough to forsake the heathen ways and holiday seasons, including the churches of Babylon and man-made spiritual laws. The guests knew who Jesus is but refused to learn more about who YAHUSHUA is the King of the Jews, your Jewish High Priest who obeyed and kept the Jewish High Holy Days and Feasts. The guests insisted on staying comfortable in a routine partaking in fellowship that fed them stale crumbs of bread instead of fresh manna from Heaven. The Bride of YAHUSHUA is concerned with more then just themselves but work to bring others to the truths of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Bride of YAHUSHUA will prepare the guests for the wedding banquet as they are doing now in their mortal bodies and will continue to help prepare the guests after the Bride changes into their Glorified Bodies and will warn the guests not to take the Mark of the Beast and to help protect them both in the physical realm and the spiritual realm.
How many of you reading or hearing this know I YAHUVEH and MY Son YAHUSHUA have spoken forth the truth in audible words, prophecies, dreams, visions, and anointed teachings from MY Jewish Apostle Elisabeth Elijah Nikomia and you have willingly closed your ears and stopped supporting this ministry so you won't be offended and have to admit you have sinned? How many of you have stayed in Churches of Babylon for convenience sake? How many of you have mixed the old wine and the new wine and wonder why it bursts? Why the Pastors of others churches won't receive these truths when you have confronted them? If you don't repent you are the guests or worse the lukewarm church that I shall vomit out of MY mouth.

I YAHUVEH have used this ministry to test the people as in Jeremiah 6:27-30, how few have listened, until the missiles hit, the people will mock but afterwards they will pray for mercy, protection and provisions and come to this ministry for answers. Some I shall have mercy on and some I shall not. The widow of Zarephath would have died if she had not obeyed Elijah of Old. I send MY apostles and prophets to warn and yet how few will listen or join with them in obedience, repentance, prayer and praise that I YAHUVEH will spare all those that humble themselves and ask that judgment be delayed for the sake of reaching more lost souls. This time of season is all about greed and selfishness and I showed you greed and selfishness even in that dream I gave MY handmaiden Elisabeth and the end results it will be. I have told her to Blow the Trumpet and assemble the troops on the wall. How many of you are deaf to that trumpet? How many will read this and take your places on that wall?

I, YAHUVEH promise you MY Beloved daughter and all others who join with you in the truths I have taught you that line up with MY Holy Scriptures. Where ever you live MY Daughter, wherever the faithful children of MINE are that take this warning and other warnings I have spoken forth from you seriously and pray and intercede for America, and obey ME in Holiness and follow in YAHUVEH's footsteps, one step at a time, I, YAHUVEH will bless them and protect them. Who ever joined with you in that dream and recognizes that I have called you to be a watchman on the wall and anointed you to assemble MY troops, help to prepare the Bride for MY Son YAHUSHUA's coming, and bless you and not curse you, to do what they normally don't do, that is to be a blessing to this ministry. I shall bless and protect and provide for them, as together you join hands and pray for Judgment to be delayed on America as it cannot be stopped, otherwise I YAHUVEH will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah among others I have destroyed for sinfulness and idolatry.

I, YAHUVEH warn all the men who will despise and mock this warning because it comes from the mouth of a woman; need I remind you how I used Deborah of Old? The troops on the wall are mighty women of YAHUVEH and they out number the men. I use the women to shame the men like I did Barak. Only I, YAHUVEH, know what it will take to cause the men to be MY Spiritual leaders and not the followers. MY mighty Women Warriors that have husbands in the eyes of this world, that insist on being followers of the churches of Babylon who teach lies, and follow after the flesh, not the RUACH ha KODESH, not leaders of truth and holiness, will be brought to open shame.

I don't tell the women who I have anointed like in the book of Joel 2:25-28 to disobey MY commandments even if it is the woman's husband saying to submit to him. The instruction to the wife that says, "Wives submit yourself to your husband in everything" is not meant for those that are unequally yoked with unbelievers. MY Word has been twisted to force a woman to conform into a heathen's image when it is used by a heathen husband. I use MY Daughter now to speak forth this truth so it will set you free. Multitudes of women are struggling with this but the truth is you chose that mate with your flesh and husbands who have mates that reject Holiness and the salvation of YAHUSHUA you choose that wife, for I did not and would not yoke a believer and non believer of YAHUSHUA together, but I will allow you and did allow you to make the choices. I put you in remembrance of Nehemiah and Ezra. (Ezra 9:1-4) (Nehemiah 13: 23-30) The Jews were not allowed to take heathens for a wife. MY Children grafted into the branch of YAHUSHUA although you may not be Jewish biologically, spiritually you are just as much a Jew. These Hebrew laws apply to you also.

If a husband is not following YAHUVEH and YAHUSHUA in Holiness, and truth and insisting that the wife disobey the Torah which includes all ten commandments, and hinder MY Anointed women from putting YAHUVEH and YAHUSHUA's will, first in their lives, I, YAHUVEH do not call these marriages equally yoked and I YAHUVEH will divide a marriage where a man refuses to allow the wife or the husband to be all I have called and chosen them to be. I will do what the husband or wife has prayed unceasingly and in faith for. If they are obedient and Holy I will not allow anything nor anyone to come between I, YAHUVEH, Father and Creator and YAHUSHUA the MESSIAH.

If a husband or wife is not interfering with the way a husband or wife worships their Creator and Messiah in truth and obedience, and has an open mind to salvation, I will have more tolerance and patience with him or her. The wife shall still be like unto a Deborah of old and I shall use her mightily as she intercedes for her husband as long as he does not harm her in anyway nor forbid her from obeying MY commands and the calling I, YAHUVEH, have placed on her life. I speak forth, together you shall do spiritual warfare to pray, and intercede for the nations and people of all races, kindred's and tongues to accomplish that which I have sent you forth with the reminder that many are called and few chosen depending on how much you want to grow spiritually. Herein lies your choices. Will you love and obey the ways of this world? Or will you obey ME, YAHUVEH, and MY Son YAHUSHUA? It is your choice. Before the foundation of this world, I, YAHUVEH already knew whose name is found in the Lamb's Book of Life.
http://www.amightywind.com/prophecy/proph66.htm

http://www.despatch.cth.com.au/Transcripts/Pawson_expose.htm

kenod

July 24th, 2007, 02:54 AM

kenod

July 24th, 2007, 03:17 AM

As christians we are to practice social justice on a personal level, uphold the laws of the land as the Bible tells us that no government has come into being without the consent of Almighty God.

Good comment.

In my country, voting is compulsory, so at the very least, we have to try to decide which political party is likely to provide the better moral climate for our kids.

To what extent a Christian should get involved in poltical action is a very interesting issue. Like you, I am a pessimist in this matter, and yet I think we should still do what we can, where we can, when we can.

Christy

July 24th, 2007, 06:49 AM

In my country, voting is compulsory, so at the very least, we have to try to decide which political party is likely to provide the better moral climate for our kids.

Now that's something I'd really struggle with as I don't like being forced, especially when it comes to politics. What country is this by the way? :)

Personally, I've never been one for voting as I don't agree with any one political party or politician. IMO they're all on a "power trip". So I can only commisserate with you in this instance.

Lexie

July 24th, 2007, 03:10 PM

IHOP expressly deny that they follow Kingdon Now/Dominion theology (political control). It is true they believe in a post-Trib rapture (wrongly in my view). Because they see the Church going through the tribulation they are attempting to build up resources to help those who will suffer at that time. Any nominal Christians who do not go in the rapture may well appreciate a bit of help. Perhaps this may be part of God's provision for those "left behind".

A man "in the spirit and power of Elijah" foreran the first coming of Christ, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children (Luke 1:17). This fulfilled the first part of Malachi's prophecy (Malachi 4:5-6). I believe the "fathers" were those of the Jewish faith, and the "children" were the Christians because John's mission was also described as: to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

In Mat 17:11 (NASB), Jesus said "Elijah is coming and will restore all things". I believe this will fulfill the second part of Malachi's prohecy by turning the hearts of the "children" (todays Christians) back to their "fathers" (the original faith of the apostles).

This will complete the process started 500 years ago in the Reformation. God used great men like Martin Luther and John Wesley and others to gradually restore truth to the Church. In spite of some excesses, in the last 100 years the Pentecostal/charismatic movement has contrbuted to this process of restoration by helping to give greater emphasis to the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Even the understanding of the pre-tribulation rapture has only been widely accepted in the last century, due to the influence of men like D L Moody, C I Scofield and others.

Whether the "Elijah" messenger is for the Church or for Israel is often debated. Some place "Elijah" as one of the two witnesses but Malachi 4:5-6 and Mat 17:11 clearly only refer to one person, not two.

That the two witnesses (Rev 11:3) are the real Elijah and Moses seems quite possible to me. But I believe the one who will come "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (as John demonstrated) is a messenger for the Church - the same messenger referred to in Rev 3:14 "the angel of the church of the Laodiceans"

Even William Branham's critics recognize that he had a very unusual ministry. D.R. McConnell, although strongly disagreeing with William Branham's teaching, expressed this opinion about his ministry: "Branham, one of the original and greatests evangelists of the post-World War II Healing Revival. Branham worked astounding miracles of healing in his crusades. To this day his gifts of supernatural knowledge of those to whom he ministered remains unparalleled" (A Different Gospel, 1988, p166).

Some will judge him as a fraud, some as a false prophet, and some as a messenger to the Church.

Kenod

I agree with you, that Elijah and Moses will be the last two wittnesses, to Israel, and the world. The Church is not Israel, so how could John the Baptist, be sent to the Church? Branham made to many statements, that go against true Christianity.

The Bible says that "God is Love." If God were not a triune God, but a singular one, i.e., without the plurality of the three personalities of the Godhood, during the eons in which God existed before He created the earth and mankind, this love would have been narcissism, or self-love, which the scriptures condemn, and because the Bible says that "God changes not," we know he is now as He has always been.

The Hebrew term Elohim is the most ancient name with which God describes Himself and is used in the first reference to Him in Genesis, He who is the creator of all things existing. Elohim is a plural noun, used consistently with a singular verb. This is a perfect word picture of the Trinity. God's attributes belong equally to three persons eternally coexisting, all associated with the creation, and all sharing Gods attributes, never more than three. It is impossible for any "Oneness" adherent to find otherwise! How can all three be attributed to being the creator, as God himself claims, if there is only one existing at a time? All three were responsible for creation.
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Branham's spirit guide, brags through Branham, and claims he was with Moses. That sorta sounds like Satan, bragging about himself, in that song symapthy for the devil. :gaah

"We're identified with him in Acts 2. We're identified with them, with the same baptism, same thing. "All he (Jesus) was then, and all he is, all he was, and all he is, we are. That's exactly." "Same thing by being a true Christian. You have to be identified with it. "I preached with Moses and war-with Noah and warned the people of the oncoming judgment, to be a real Christian. I was with Moses at the burning bush; I saw the Pillar of Fire; I saw His glory. I was with Moses up there in the wilderness.
To be a Christian, I have to be identified with everything God was, to be a Christian. I seen His glory; I heard His voice. Don't try to explain it away from me now, 'cause I was there. I know what I'm talking about. I seen what happened. Yes, sir!"
"I was at the Red Sea when I seen the Spirit of God move down and part the water from one side, … through about a ninety foot sea. I seen the Spirit of God. I walked with Moses through that dry ground, across that Red Sea. I stood by Mount Sinai and seen the thunder and lightning falling. I eat manna with them out there. I drank from that Rock; I'm still doing it tonight. I was identified with the manna-eaters. I was identified with them that drunk from the rock." "I was with John the Baptist and before them critics. I seen the Spirit of God descending; I heard the voice of God say, "This is My beloved Son in Whom I'm pleased to dwell in." Yes, sir! I sure was Identified with him. That's exactly right." "I was with the 120 in the Upper Room. I was identified up there with them. Oh, I - I feel religious. Amen! I was identified there. I'm one of them. I was identified; I got the same experience they had. I was there when it happened, to be a true Christian." ( The Mighty God Unveiled Before Us).

He opened the 7 seals "And the Angels took me into that pyramid of themselves - the mysteries of God known only to them. And now, they were the messengers that come to interpret that pyramid or that Message of the secret of these Seven Seals which lays with inside the pyramid."

"We find out that during that time I saw seven Angels in a form of a pyramid that swept down and picked me up. And I was brought east to open the Seven Seals for God." (Commission By Seven Mighty Angels). It is Jesus who alone is worthy to open the 7 seals.

The famous Pillar of fire picture probably indicates demonic possession, and at a very minimum, strong demonic influence.

During his ministry the light was photographed many times. To question whether this was real or not may be redundant. It was the same Pillar of Fire which had been with Branham since the time of his birth. When praying for the sick he would watch the Pillar of fire move around the building from one person to another, revealing the "thoughts and intents" of the heart, the past, the present and the future. These were demonic manifestations and the work of "familiar spirits."

2 Cor.11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." Light effects does not prove whether someone speaks from God at all. Joseph Smith, the false prophet who founded the major Cult, the Mormon Church, saw pillars of light and angels constantly. Being impressed by the supernatural is deceitful. Genesis tells us that Satan came disguised in the form of a Snake and in the Hebrew, he is described as "shining" standing upright. Eve and then Adam were bewitched and then betrayed.

John the Baptist had no fire above his head. The only ones who did were those in the upper room. It happened only once and only briefly then, for the purpose of demonstrating that God had sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within believers in Jesus, as He had promised them. This began the Church.

William Branham was seen with pictures of a light taken above his head, and this became the convincing proof to the Pentecostal followers, as is the stigmata, the blood coming from the hands and feet of the Catholic mystic to the Catholic as they are led into a false doctrine by the angel (of light). It is not the physical light that traveled with Branham, but the light of truth of Gods Holy Word which must be compared to the deception from Branham. To accept every person who comes with an experience and exhibits the supernatural is to believe that whoever exhibits spiritual power and names the name of Christ, speaks for Christ, even though they clearly contradict His written Word! To fail to practice spiritual discernment in this manner will indeed eliminate denominations just like Branham wanted, however; it will also lead us straight into the one world Church of the AntiChrist.

Branham taught that the Word of God was given in three forms, the Zodiac, the Egyptian pyramids, and the written scripture.(Al Dager, Vengeance is Ours, Sword).
But, the Manifested Sons of God doctrine is different from Scripture. Under a delusion from Satan, they choose to believe that all creation eagerly awaits the time when the "true sons" of God will finally become aware of "who they are in Christ," conquerors and overcomers, and will then come into their true Glory and Power as the Sons of God. They believe they will be the ones who will remove the curse, and overcome all of God's enemies, even death! The historic church has been waiting for God the Son in the second coming. The Manifested Sons of God teach that God is waiting for you and I.

Earl Paulk, a well known "Kingdom Now" proponent, explains his application of Romans 8:19 "The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan. When the Church reaches that level of maturity, God will be able to say, 'This generation of the Church does not need to die. She has reached a place of maturity. I will translate her because her maturity pleases Me.'"

Bill Hamon writes, "The Church will gain victory over the last enemy, death. Victory speaks of a battle being fought. The last day saints will wage and win a warfare against death. The last generation saints will come to translating faith in preparation for participation in the translation." (The Eternal Church)

"Yes, sin, sickness and disease, spiritual death, poverty, and everything else that's of the devil once ruled us. But now, bless God, we rule them -- for this is the Day of Dominion!" (Kenneth Hagin, "Rejoice! This Is the Day Which the Lord Hath Made!" The Word of Faith, Sept. 1996)------------------------------------------------------------

Some believe that the second coming of Jesus instead of being actually Jesus Himself, is to be "in the Church," before he comes for the Church because the Church, his body will actually become Christ on earth, glorious and triumphant. They believe they are to physically conquer all lands and then rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Others believe that after the Church has taken dominion over the nations, through their own actions, they will hasten the day Jesus will return to earth and they will proudly hand the nations over to Him.

This is certainly not a new idea, for Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult taught this over 100 years ago, but at that time the Church at large, Christ's Body was Biblically knowledgable enough to practise "spiritual discernment" and recognize such teachings as false doctrine.

There are no Apostles today, as there were when the Lord handpicked the original 12 or when others became apostolic legates under them, because no one alive qualifies as an eye witness who either saw the risen Lord, or knew one of the eyewitnesses who did. Based on Acts 1, all of the claimed visions and dreams in our present time do not qualify anyone for apostleship. This has always been recognized within the orthodox believing Biblical Christian Church

In our present day however, because of the rapidly escalating great endtime "falling away" from the faith, or apostasy, a statement such as Warnock's manifesto declaring that "Christ should visit the saints in the last great Feast, and minister His life 'In secret 'before He is openly manifested! is received by many, and few Christians today are discerning enough to emulate the Bereans who are commended in Scripture, for checking everything religious teachers tried to teach them against God's Written Word, before accepting it as being from God.

Christians should all understand that Warnock's personal speculative comments are an abomination, and that Christ's second Coming is not open to Unscriptural speculation.BR>
Warnock continued: "When a Christian comes to that place where he really appreciates and understands and enjoys Spiritual things, then he can truly rejoice in the fact that Christ is coming back again "to be manifested within." (The Feast of Tabernacles, George Warnock, Bill Britton). When he speaks of Christ he means Christ is "the anointing," (the empowerment)which is the presence of the Holy Spirt, not the person of Jesus.

William Branham: "In them days it was God in a man, His Son, Jesus Christ. ...It was God In Christ, God, in a man, the fullness of the Godhead bodily In a man. God, in a man; now, it's God in men. See? The fullness of God in the Godhead bodily in His entire Church, manifesting Himself, fullfilling His Word." (The Mighty God Unveiled Before Us). Thus, the Manifest Sons of God teaching in embryo is Branham's misunderstanding of God, believing that He existed only within Christ and he then parallelled this to God existing physically within the Church. His stated reason for believing this is "that God has always had skin on Him."(The Mighty God Unveiled Before Us) Apparently, Branham chose to omit the Biblical teaching that God is spirit.

http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/apostateoccultprophets.htm

kenod

July 25th, 2007, 07:37 AM

William Branham said that he saw and spoke to an angel. Whether we believe him or not, it is certainly not unscriptural (Acts 27:23; Hebrews 13:2).

The "Light" that appeared in his meetings, he said was a visible sign of God's presence, like Peter saw in the prison (Acts 12:7) and Paul saw on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:3). I have read some testimonies on RR about people who believe God has shown them a rainbow as a sign. I don't find it hard to believe at all. We serve a supernatural God!

The amazing thing is that when William Branham said the "Light" was present, he was able to tell people their needs and personal details about them which even academics and critics accept as genuine (Walter Hollenweger, "Pentecostalism", 1997, p229; David Harrell, "All Things Are Possible", 1978, p25).

Those who know William Branham's ministry well, but yet still disagree with his teaching, are very careful about calling the supernatural experiences "demonic" because the pharisees made the same accusation against Jesus (Mat 12:24).

One can agree or disagree about doctrinal matters - someone has to be right and someone has to be mistaken. I believe the Bible is infallible but I do not believe my personal understanding (or any other person's) is infallible. When we go beyond disagreeing and denounce others, we are setting ourselves up as an infallible interpreter of God's Word, and I feel that is a big mistake.

The lady who runs the "bloomington" website quoted in the previous post is anti all things Pentecostal/charismatic (calling them "pagan"), not just anti William Branham. There are nearly a half billion Christians who disagree!