The Masons & Freemasonry

[Kamatu]

I'm not asking for a definitive word on Freemasonry, but this is a little like trying to lump all believers under a Pope, if I can use my own analogy. I've always liked discussing things between individuals instead of whole organizations anyway.

I need to clarify something with you. Do you think I'm equating Masonic philosophy with that of the philosophers on Mars Hill that Paul was preaching to?

[Kliska]

I need to clarify something with you. Do you think I'm equating Masonic philosophy with that of the philosophers on Mars Hill that Paul was preaching to?

Not the way you first presented it, no. Here's what you said, "However, from a Christian standpoint it is incomplete, which is why I'd say it is a preChristian position such as the one Paul used to start his address on Mars Hill."

I believe you were comparing Paul's "opening salvo" as a general philosophy like the one the Masons have, and I'm simply saying Paul didn't leave it general, he took it specific, and in fact that specific message was the important one all along, and what he set out to preach. Even you admit, it was a position used to start his address. I'm simply saying, carry the analogy through; Paul would never have preached a general philosophy, and said, "that's it boys, continue as you were," or "if you guys keep your philosophies general, then I'm in..."

Instead, we get this: Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

[Kamatu]

Groups like masons, freemasons, shriners, etc. are transcendent philanthropist organizations reacting against the empiricism's of the 1700's.

They were formed by deists that believed God exists but does not interfere with man's affairs, they believe we are all gods and must take it upon ourselves to help fellow man.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/freemasonry.html

Manly P. Hall [1901-1990], a 33rd degree Mason [well known for his The Secret Teachings of All Ages: An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic and Rosicrucian Symbolical Philosophy] was one of the early authors who claimed a pagan origin for Freemasonry. In his book entitled The Lost Keys of Freemasonry, he says that Freemasonry is not a material thing: it is a universal expression of the Divine Wisdom. [Emphasis Added]

"The Masonic order is not a mere social organization, but is composed of all those who have banded themselves together to learn and apply the principles of mysticism and the occult rites."

Masonicinfo [http://www.masonicinfo.com/authors.htm] says since Manly P. Hall wrote this book thirty one years before he became a Mason...

“.. it can easily be seen that the book represents merely the personal theories of a non-Mason”
he was a “self-avowed mystic and hardly a "leading authority" of Freemasonry”.
“his writings have not received official sanction by any Masonic body”

Official Sanction? I thought no Mason spoke for any other Mason or Lodge, and that there was no central or unified authority…

Argument by hyperlink and cut n' paste?

I notice you bypassed the portions where the author at that link reasonably refuted many of the the earlier charges made in this thread against Freemasonry. Why?

However, you hit two points here that should be dealt with.

If you accept the "Born in Blood" or the "operative vs. speculative" origin theories, then Freemasonry is much older. If the Regius Poem is Masonic (which it seems to be), then is comes from at least several centuries before the public version that "came out" in the early 1700s. IOW, during a time when what we would consider trivial heterodox denominational differences ended in violence.

The conclusion you draw from the Manly Hall issue is amusing. Morals and Dogma received official sanction from the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite and AFAIK, from none other. (A Bridge to Light is a condensed version of the content of Morals and Dogma, not a "new" book BTW.) The various monitors listed would have official sanction by their various Grand Jurisdictions and no other. Sooooo, the fact that Mr. Hall's writings "have not received official sanction by any Masonic body" doesn't mean anything more than the fact than what it says, no Masonic body that could sanction it has. Not the little "conspiracy theory" hint that your post had.

Seriously, how did you manage to do this? Two facts:
A) Nobody speaks for all of Masonry;
B) No Masonic body has sanctioned Manly P. Hall's writings;
turned into "Official Sanction? I thought no Mason spoke for any other Mason or Lodge, and that there was no central or unified authority… " with overtones of cuing up the Imperial Theme Music? :scratch:panic:doh:aha:pound

In any case just because you disagree with them does NOT give you the license to trash another brother or sister in Christ. You do need to remember that another born Again Christian is FAR more your brother than every non-Christian Mason that has ever lived.. This is the body of Christ we are talking about ...substantially above any man made organization, even the Lodge.. Surprise surprise ! You have every right to disagree with another Christian while remembering that you are both on the same side. The sun does not rise and set on the Masonic Lodge, which, like everything else manmade, will shortly be relegated to memory.

[And here I have to make the distinction between an honest difference of opinion between two Christians and the many false prophets and wolves that have invaded the church, teaching doctrines totally contrary to the Word of God. Men and women that one can not call Christian by any stretch of the imagination and who are leading the sheep astray, perhaps even to their doom].

Let me put it this way ... If ONE Christian has been pulled away from the snares of Astrology, Ayurvedic Medicine or Eastern Style Mediation thanks to the research and work of John Ankerberg and John Weldon, then they have saved a soul, not just a body. Yet you show neither respect nor appreciation for this.


Soooo, Christians don't have the right to defend their social groups because of the superior relationship of their Christian brothers and sisters? While those same Christian "brothers and sisters" have the right to vilify, slander and drive out those who they disagree with? That they have the right to control the thoughts and actions of others based on their opinions with some very loose Scriptural "support"? (Note: I agree that my relationship with my Christian brothers is superior to that of other "brothers".) They get to trash me because I am a Mason, but I don't get to trash them because they claim to be Christian!?! Heh, looks like an appeal to Masons to shut up again and go back to the traditional Masonic defense of Masonry, which is silence. So much easier to spread rumors and lies that way I guess.

Oh, BTW, which one of the denominational groups in the list of antiMasons qualify as something other than a "man-made organization"? The Roman Catholics can and do claim to be.....

While I can appreciate the saving of a soul, I question that the "shading" of truth in defense of the Gospel is Scriptural in any degree. After all, if one is "free" with truth, the implication is that one will be "free" with Truth also. Sorry, I'm old fashioned, I don't expect preachers to lie to me and John Ankerberg has had more than one problem with truth, how many has he driven away from Truth because of that?

Perhaps, above all, I have been most disappointed with the reaction of Christian Masons, many of whom seem far more ready to defend the Lodge than Christianity, seeming to forget that many of the so called ‘Anti-Masons’ are defending the faith to the best of their ability. Many Christian organizations that have been labeled Anti-Mason are simply comparing what they know to Scripture.

Key observations: Their ability is lacking and their knowledge is incomplete. So instead of speaking potential lies and slander as well as outright lies and slanders for "the glory of God", they should increase their knowledge and speak the truth, it will better prepare them for declaring Truth to the world.

For example, I've read both versions of the SBC's antiMasonic documents available (some are no longer available for review). As a Christian apologist, if these were antiChristian documents they'd be trivially rejected as junk. Old out of date sources, almost exclusive use of one source, not properly sourcing quotes so they can be verified, etc. for the "new" version. That plus outright quoting out of context for the "old" version, which contained better footnotes and made it easier to check the quotes. In this particular case, both are trivially smoked by reading the preface to Morals and Dogma, especially the portion I quoted earlier in this thread. In all Christian love and making all possible allowances the author(s) of them were either too trusting in their acceptance of some source or unable to do primary research. If I call it as I see it, they are knowingly commiting fraud to promote an agenda.

[Kamatu]

Good, I thought I was reading it wrong. You are correct, Paul did not leave it so, nor should he have as a Christian preaching the Gospel.

Paul started by preaching a philosophy (to philosophers) that led to the Gospel and then gave the Gospel. I'm saying that after weeding through the mass verbiage of the antiMasons, what actually is left, IMO, is philosophical thought that is the same as what Paul used to start his sermon on Mars Hill. No, it isn't the Gospel, but then it isn't supposed to be since Masonry is not a religion. However, this philosophy does not contradict Christianity as Masonry is being accused of, unless one thinks that Paul was contradicting Christianity while he preached the Gospel of Christ. :twitch OTOH, Masonry is not a religion either, so it isn't a "failure" of Freemasonry to go any further, since it leaves such "further" to the conscience of the individual.

On the question of why would a Christian belong to such an organization, that I leave up to the individual Christian, so long as that organization doesn't contradict Christianity. The fact that it promotes a number of Christian ethical positions could be considered a bonus.

Not the way you first presented it, no. Here's what you said, "However, from a Christian standpoint it is incomplete, which is why I'd say it is a preChristian position such as the one Paul used to start his address on Mars Hill."

I believe you were comparing Paul's "opening salvo" as a general philosophy like the one the Masons have, and I'm simply saying Paul didn't leave it general, he took it specific, and in fact that specific message was the important one all along, and what he set out to preach. Even you admit, it was a position used to start his address. I'm simply saying, carry the analogy through; Paul would never have preached a general philosophy, and said, "that's it boys, continue as you were," or "if you guys keep your philosophies general, then I'm in..."

Instead, we get this: Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

[Kliska]

Good, I thought I was reading it wrong. You are correct, Paul did not leave it so, nor should he have as a Christian preaching the Gospel.

And, Paul did not join in their respective groups either, he did not become or remain a supporter of the "general philosophy" under consideration.

Paul started by preaching a philosophy (to philosophers) that led to the Gospel and then gave the Gospel. I'm saying that after weeding through the mass verbiage of the antiMasons, what actually is left, IMO, is philosophical thought that is the same as what Paul used to start his sermon on Mars Hill.

And, perhaps no one would dispute this, but again, keep carrying the analogy through. Paul changed and challenged them, he did not stop at the general, he did not accept them, nor become a part of them, he did however try to get them to come into the group he was representing.

No, it isn't the Gospel, but then it isn't supposed to be since Masonry is not a religion.

But it is not secular, so has put itself into a religious category by making those general comments about deity.

However, this philosophy does not contradict Christianity as Masonry is being accused of, unless one thinks that Paul was contradicting Christianity while he preached the Gospel of Christ.

Eh....One has to be really careful here, because if someone is not actively for Christ, then they are in fact against Him. And there lies one of the problems...Masonry has made statements about a general deity, by doing this, they are, in effect, and in the light of Jesus' statements, denying Him as an organization...they could have left spirituality out of it entirely, but they didn't.

OTOH, Masonry is not a religion either, so it isn't a "failure" of Freemasonry to go any further, since it leaves such "further" to the conscience of the individual.

And that's one of the things I'm saying; I don't think it a good analogy to compare the philosophy of Masonry with anything having to do with Paul, and in fact probably damages your argument, because it brings up a lot of what I've pointed out in the minds of other believers.

On the question of why would a Christian belong to such an organization, that I leave up to the individual Christian, so long as that organization doesn't contradict Christianity. The fact that it promotes a number of Christian ethical positions could be considered a bonus.

I leave it up to the individual as well. But I have to say that, in talking in general terms about deity, Masonry has indeed opened themselves up for criticism, since again, as Paul, we know specifically what God is Truth, what God is The God, and that The Lord doesn't like fence sitters, so to speak, and Masonry would be an fence sitting organization, taken as a group or a whole.

Now, one other thing comes up in the context of this thread, and looking at this from a different perspective; there wouldn't be all these doubts and questions and conspiracty theories if the masons were not a closed organization that uses a lot of symbols, rites, ceremonies, etc... So, in effect, organizations like these are begging for investigation, and people wanting to know what is going on behind closed doors. There really is no other way human beings are going to psychologically react to "secret societies." And, add to that the Christian's (right) love for scripture, and you can, rightly or wrongly, get verses like this one in mind: John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[Buzzardhut]

For example, I've read both versions of the SBC's antiMasonic documents available (some are no longer available for review). As a Christian apologist, if these were antiChristian documents they'd be trivially rejected as junk. Old out of date sources, almost exclusive use of one source, not properly sourcing quotes so they can be verified, etc. for the "new" version. That plus outright quoting out of context for the "old" version, which contained better footnotes and made it easier to check the quotes. In this particular case, both are trivially smoked by reading the preface to Morals and Dogma, especially the portion I quoted earlier in this thread. In all Christian love and making all possible allowances the author(s) of them were either too trusting in their acceptance of some source or unable to do primary research. If I call it as I see it, they are knowingly commiting fraud to promote an agenda.
Out of date? Masons is a dated group.
I don't think anything can be said that will dislodge you from your loyalties to the Masonic realm. :ohno

[Zaphnathpaaneah]

Check the end of Ephesians 4....

Actually the middle of Ephesians 4 is more applicable to this thread:


...that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Ephesians 4:14 (NKJV)

...having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
Ephesians 4:18 (NKJV)

Actually, it looks like the purpose of this thread is to promote slander, bad research and gossip. It also seems among the other big posters to suffer from a bit of the "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts".

Of course, it must be everyone ELSE whose mind is made up and isn't confused by the facts. That couldn't possibly be you? It MUST only be everyone else.

...but this is cutting into other things that are more important.

No for you it's actually not. Apparently there is nothing more important to you than defending "masonry" and its tenants. There are plenty of different threads on this board dealing with countless issues of Christianity and apologetics, yet basically everything you have posted on this board is in this thread only and is geared to being an apologist for the "great architect of the universe" ( who is NOT the God of the Bible ).


It's clear you will not give up masonry for anything, because "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts".


Maybe sometime we could instead discuss Christianity on other threads on this board?

Errr..... on second thought, it looks like there ain't much chance of that happening.

[tybash]

Being that my hubby works around and sometimes frat houses and the ladies dorms, and has told me some stories. I've come to the conclusion, If my kids ever and I mean ever join one of those, I would literly drive over and bring their ever loving rearends home. NO child of God could possible live in there and thrive.

[BrideOfChrist]

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/

I don't think this is an innocent men's fraternity club...

Mods - If this website is suspect, please delete link. :)

[αρμαγεδδων]

Hello fellow children of God.
Well as you will see by my posts I am not here often, for that I am sorry!
I am not as well versed in much of what took me 2 hours and 6 aspirin to read :stars:
I guess I have 2 points or views I guess, if tomorrow Armageddon happened would Masons be Raptured?
If having secret handshakes, passwords rituals, what ever they would proclaim as the leader, master who would be the person above all others.
Does this not violate thou shall have no other gods before me, for an example.?
Should Christ not be the only one looked up too. Should not his word command all? And be spoken above all?
I might be naive but then had no real opinion since it is not very common in my part of Canada. But I did read this thread and found it easy to now have a opinion, that being the only truth is that of our lord, he is the only one we need exalt above all others.Exalt is a word which means to praise, glorify, honor, intensify, or heighten. It is most often used in religious contexts
I mean no offense to anyone, just can't be blind by what I have read here when our salvation comes thou Christ not any group that puts or omits him as lord and Saviour.

:bibleGod bless you all