The Masons & Freemasonry

[jdh444]

Kamatu
Remember that no one Mason can speak for Freemasonry, except for a Grandmaster, who can speak for his Grand Jurisdiction while he is in office.


Sooooo, I guess that means that everyone could be right since you can only speak for your particular lodge. I mean it seems like you disagree with everything that everyone has reserched about Freemasonry and discount other peoples testimony of their ACTUAL experiences with FM, yet hold out your experience and research as superior to theirs. Then you disclaim it with the statement above. BTW, could you tell us all what exactly happens in your secret lodge meetings, I am curious to know first hand knowledge. I don't know who is right, but I don't like the tone that some are taking with others on this subject.

[Kamatu]

Don't worry about the posts before this one, I'll get back to them in the next day or three.

Kamatu
Sooooo, I guess that means that everyone could be right since you can only speak for your particular lodge. I mean it seems like you disagree with everything that everyone has reserched about Freemasonry and discount other peoples testimony of their ACTUAL experiences with FM, yet hold out your experience and research as superior to theirs. Then you disclaim it with the statement above.

The problem with these "actual" experiences is that they are based on the assertion that Masonry is Satanic. If it was just "me and them", I'd treat it differently, but when "they" can be found over and over and over and over to be quoting hoaxes, quoting documents out of context, editing quotes for more antiMasonic "effect", refusing to mention disclaimers and making up entire bodies of "theology" for the Freemasons, that no Mason I'm aware of has ever heard of, then there is a bit of objective evidence of lying.

I've done the digging, I've done the reading, I've done a chunk of the primary research. I don't do more because I'm not a Masonic apologist and everything I've found agrees in refuting the antiMasonic positions of the cut 'n' paste hyperlink brigade and the testifiers. Notice the long string of questions I've asked that have not been answered. Why would that be?

Where the disclaimer I gave comes in is where I take my speculation beyond what Masonry teaches, as in my discussion with Kliska.

BTW, could you tell us all what exactly happens in your secret lodge meetings, I am curious to know first hand knowledge. I don't know who is right, but I don't like the tone that some are taking with others on this subject.

Last few meetings? In general, sure:
1. Discussed and prayed for the sick and deceased, mainly Masons.
2. Discussed the need for some work to our building.
3. Discussed our participation in a charity event later this spring.
4. Voted to give some charity to a worthy group in need of more resources.
5. Gave our lodge's Mason of the Year award.

Real exciting stuff, isn't it? Heck, 1% of the crap Freemasons have been accused of on this thread would juice it up some. :yeah

Of course, the problem with that kind of "juicing it up some" would send the membership out of Masonry, including me. :faint

Well, maybe not the world domination bit. It might be fun to be a world dominator for a while, Cue The Imperial Theme Music! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8) :devil

Oh wait, I'd just be a stormtrooper..... :pound

[jdh444]

Thanks for the response Kamatu. IMO, for whatever its worth, is that each lodge is different from another. I know of 2 specifically in my area that are polar opposites. One takes FM very seriously with all the tradition and stuff, where the other kinda cares less, they are just another social club. That being said, I probably would never join one even though I have several people who would sponsor me. I beleive that the HS has put a check in my heart about it so I just won't go there. I was in a fraternity in college and while there visted other chapters of my national fraternity. The diferences in policy, practice, traditions, etc were shocking in some cases. I imagine this is the same for FM. Would you say it is possible that some chapters or lodges of FM might be into the occult or questionable practices? Is there a way to sort of "check it out" before you join?

[scrappergirl]

Last few meetings? In general, sure:
1. Discussed and prayed for the sick and deceased, mainly Masons.
2. Discussed the need for some work to our building.
3. Discussed our participation in a charity event later this spring.
4. Voted to give some charity to a worthy group in need of more resources.
5. Gave our lodge's Mason of the Year award.


i kind of expected some discussion of the ritual portion of the meeting, rather than the business side.

[mustang]

I know I was in a Fraternity in college that borrowed a lot from the Masons as far as initiation ritual. I am 36 and I still think it is one of the best things I ever did as some of my best friends ever were members. I know some people have problems with certain wordings or actions in Masonry ritual but one must remember that not all the words have the same meaning today as they did back then. Just look at the word gay over the last 50 years. Plus when Masonry was first needing secrecy they were literally being attacked and killed by the Catholic church so they had to hold meetings in secret and make people vow they would not reveal who they were.

I will try to post when I can if people are curious about certain things but if I don't please don't think I am trying to hide as I am in training for overseas deployment and don't have a lot of time.

[BrideOfChrist]

What's up the secrecy, rituals and such? These are grown men, for crying out loud. It's either something more sinister or it's a whole lot of men reverting back to their childhood and playing boys' club. Doesn't make any sense.

[scrappergirl]

What's up the secrecy, rituals and such? These are grown men, for crying out loud. It's either something more sinister or it's a whole lot of men reverting back to their childhood and playing boys' club. Doesn't make any sense.

well said.
secret phrases, secret handshakes, secret signs...dressing up in tuxedos and lambskin aprons and top hats...
its either lunacy or something else. :idunno

[Kamatu]

I'm going to hit these first since they are shorter, then start working on the other early ones.

Thanks for the response Kamatu. IMO, for whatever its worth, is that each lodge is different from another. I know of 2 specifically in my area that are polar opposites. One takes FM very seriously with all the tradition and stuff, where the other kinda cares less, they are just another social club. That being said, I probably would never join one even though I have several people who would sponsor me. I beleive that the HS has put a check in my heart about it so I just won't go there. I was in a fraternity in college and while there visted other chapters of my national fraternity. The diferences in policy, practice, traditions, etc were shocking in some cases. I imagine this is the same for FM. Would you say it is possible that some chapters or lodges of FM might be into the occult or questionable practices? Is there a way to sort of "check it out" before you join?

There can be differences, I'm not knowledgeable about all Grand Jurisdictions' work. I know that in the jurisdictions where I have been a member/visitor, I'm not aware of any lodges that dabble in the occult. Individual Masons, yes, several of them have, but then if we are using the individuals to defame the group, I'd suggest you consider some of the ones calling themselves ministers, priests and preachers who have their own inventory of sins. I don't consider them representing the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ other than the fact that they bring defamation on the Church.

On your frat question, couldn't tell you, I never joined one. However with what I am aware of about them, they do not have the checks and balances in the government of a Masonic Grand Jurisdiction. Which include visits and inspections from higher levels to check on what lodges are doing. I wouldn't be too sure on your characterization of the two lodges, depending on how I was asked, I can answer both ways (traditional/heavy ritual vs. social) for my own lodge.

On the important part, if the Spirit is leading you away, then don't join. As both a Christian and a Mason I'd strongly advise against you joining Masonry. Why in a moment.

i kind of expected some discussion of the ritual portion of the meeting, rather than the business side.

There are several rituals out there as "exposes" of Masonry. I've heard that Duncan's is a very good one and can be found in libraries. I haven't read much of it myself, just some snippets, but what I've seen is pretty close. It won't match everything everywhere, but it will be close enough as there are some very minor variations between rituals. Be careful though, there are some bogus rituals out there created by unrecognized groups calling themselves Masons. One sells on Ebay and purports to be the 4th-33d degree ritual of the Scottish Rite. Ok, maybe it is, it just isn't one recognized or used by and SR jurisdiction, but was for a defunct group.

As to some of the ritual, it is taught to every Freemason as he goes through the degrees that Masonry should not interfere with any of his duties to God, Family or Country. Hence my advice to jdh444.

What's up the secrecy, rituals and such? These are grown men, for crying out loud. It's either something more sinister or it's a whole lot of men reverting back to their childhood and playing boys' club. Doesn't make any sense.

Because in recent history the forms of Freemasonry have allowed resistance to tyranny and oppression to survive, just as it did when Masonry originally arose (IMO, this has not been conclusively proven, but I find the circumstantial evidence convincing). Then the tyrants were those who thought that "defending" the Gospel of Christ required the use of fire, water, ropes, chains, lies, slander and other torture (with satanic, occultic and demonic charges abounding) to bring all into line with the "pure" thought of their vision of the church. Especially those "freethinking" Freemasons who didn't bow down and worship the opinions of their "betters" in religious matters.

Shall we see some of the modern fellow travelers of the antiMasons in this thread? Béla Kun, Stalin (and all Warsaw Pact countries), Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, Saddam, Salazar... Didn't someone say something about yoking?

[scrappergirl]

i didn't know there was more than one ritual.
rainbow girls only had one ritual book.

[Kamatu]

And, Paul did not join in their respective groups either, he did not become or remain a supporter of the "general philosophy" under consideration.

Of course not and that wasn't my point. He went from general revelation to special revelation. He wasn't putting in a petition to join the Mars Hill Club or discussing the business of how to divide up the speaking times and areas for the Mars Hill Educational Collective.


And, perhaps no one would dispute this, but again, keep carrying the analogy through. Paul changed and challenged them, he did not stop at the general, he did not accept them, nor become a part of them, he did however try to get them to come into the group he was representing.

No he didn't.

But it is not secular, so has put itself into a religious category by making those general comments about deity.

Heh, well as has been noted, it depends on your definition of "religion", Masonry does have the hallmarks of a "religious" institution, but fails to qualify as a religion mainly because it has no systematic theology, no eschatology, no plan of salvation, etc.

Eh....One has to be really careful here, because if someone is not actively for Christ, then they are in fact against Him. And there lies one of the problems...Masonry has made statements about a general deity, by doing this, they are, in effect, and in the light of Jesus' statements, denying Him as an organization...they could have left spirituality out of it entirely, but they didn't.

No, they are not addressing the issue at all. General revelation is not in conflict with (or "against") special revelation, they are complimentary. General revelation does not save. General revelation can lead towards special revelation (we need to get to "There is a God" before we can get to "and Jesus Christ is His Son"). This is again where I get what I call the "preChristian" thought.

Note: Job 38-40, Psalm 19, Acts 14:15-17, 17:22-31, Romans 1:18-21, 2:14-16

And that's one of the things I'm saying; I don't think it a good analogy to compare the philosophy of Masonry with anything having to do with Paul, and in fact probably damages your argument, because it brings up a lot of what I've pointed out in the minds of other believers.

But we seem to be having a disconnect here somewhere. I don't have to "split" Masonry and Christianity up into different part of my brain. The morals and teachings of Freemasonry (in my life at least) compliments my Christianity. I can also clearly see where one leaves off and the other begins (although one does not leave off at all). You and I might be able to agree on a heterodox position between us on this, but I really doubt it would be a heretical one.

I leave it up to the individual as well. But I have to say that, in talking in general terms about deity, Masonry has indeed opened themselves up for criticism, since again, as Paul, we know specifically what God is Truth, what God is The God, and that The Lord doesn't like fence sitters, so to speak, and Masonry would be an fence sitting organization, taken as a group or a whole.

No. One of the lessons of Freemasonry is that we are to devote time to our religious faith and place of worship.

Now, one other thing comes up in the context of this thread, and looking at this from a different perspective; there wouldn't be all these doubts and questions and conspiracty theories if the masons were not a closed organization that uses a lot of symbols, rites, ceremonies, etc... So, in effect, organizations like these are begging for investigation, and people wanting to know what is going on behind closed doors. There really is no other way human beings are going to psychologically react to "secret societies." And, add to that the Christian's (right) love for scripture, and you can, rightly or wrongly, get verses like this one in mind: John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Look again at the "fruit" that Freemasonry bears and I'll mention this again:

Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

In fact, that is the traditional defense of Freemasonry. If our good "fruit" is not enough, then eat silence. The world has changed however and the dumbing down of the education system hasn't helped matters.