Hmm. .explain. . .

[deilands]

Job 23:13 But he (God) [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing (desiring) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

-Daniel.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Job 23:13 But he (God) [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing (desiring) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

-Daniel.

You can also add the following scripture:

Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. - Psa 135:6

As for 2 Peter 3:9, a simply cursory reading of the context in the English, as well as an exegetical study in the Greek, univocally shows that God is not desiring that any of his "elect" will perish, but that all of his "elect" from throughout the ages will come to repentance. When the fullness of the Gentiles come in, and all of Israel (Jews and Gentiles in Christ) are saved, Christ will return.

[deilands]

How can you determine that the verse is merely speaking of a small subset of 'all'?

[deilands]

And just to add to the pot: What about 1st Timothy 2:3-4
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will (desires to) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[deilands]

If I interpreted the passages as they are without any explanation I'd be led to believe that at some point all will be saved - since God gets what he wants, and apparently He wants all saved.

[Ladybug]

He does want all saved, but He also wants us to decide for ourselves whether or not we follow Him; that's where free will comes in.

[deilands]

Hmm -

So in the one case, He will accomplish what He desires. In the other case, He desires all men to be saved. In the final case He gives us free will to determine whether we will accept Him or not? That doesn't seem to jive well. This whole thing about free will has always been odd to me. Where in Scripture do we find the concept of free will? We continually see the concept of choice - I agree - however, choice and free will are two separate things.

[Saved by Grace_06]

How can you determine that the verse is merely speaking of a small subset of 'all'?


That's a good question. Let's look at the scripture together and perform an exegesis.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

First, we'll look at the verse in the English and just gather some information from the context. The first question that should be asked is, "who is the 'usward' refering to? Answer: The "us-ward" or "you" is refering the the "beloved" in verse 8 - "But 'beloved,' be not ignorant." The next question that should be asked is "who is the beloved?" Notice verse 1 for the answer..."This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved." Therefore, for our answer to the quesetion - namely, "who is the beloved?" we must go to the first letter - 1 Peter 1:1. There we read these words: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles."

That was the easy part - a contexual reading in the English. Let's get a bit deeper. Let's look at the scripture again.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice the words in the color red: "Some men" and "any." They are the same word in the Greek - namely, the word "tis." The meaning of the word is "certain ones." Therefore, 2 Peter 3:9 could just as easily be translated as thus:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as certain ones [some men] count slackness; but is longsuffing towards you, not willing that certain ones [any] perish."

Lastly, notice the word in purple/indigo - the word "all." It is the word "pas" in the Greek and its definations are as followed:

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively
2a) some of all types

Consider all that I said (I hope I made sense) and see which "all" or "pas" best fits the context. I believe since the verse is only talking about "cetain ones," the "all" or "pas" is in the collective sense, i.e., "some of all types." Just like it says in 1 Tim 2:1-4.

I hope what I wrote made at least some sense. It is a bit difficult explain this in writing and much easier in person.

Grace and Peace,

Terrence

[Saved by Grace_06]

Hmm -

So in the one case, He will accomplish what He desires. In the other case, He desires all men to be saved. In the final case He gives us free will to determine whether we will accept Him or not? That doesn't seem to jive well. This whole thing about free will has always been odd to me. Where in Scripture do we find the concept of free will? We continually see the concept of choice - I agree - however, choice and free will are two separate things.


You're asking very good questions that I feel most Christians do not consider. Indeed, the questions you're asking, if taken to its logical end, will show the fallacy in the premise which many of Christians hold - namely the premise of freewill. Honestly, salvation is not of man, but of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Men's will isn't free, but is enslaved to their sinful nature. Therefore, every choice that man makes is inclined to what man desires. And, since none desire God or none seek God (Rom 3:11), God chooses to save some by grace alone, through his gift of faith to them, alone, and all to his glory alone. People may ask then, "if Men's wills are enslaved to sin and they choose that which is consistant to their sin nature, 'why does God still find fault" (Rom 9:19)? God still finds fault in man because man is responsible for his choice. It is not that man is a poor slave to sin and cannot help do what he does. Rather, man is a willing slave to sin. Therefore, he cannot come to Christ, because he will not come to Christ. And, he will not come to Christ because he HATES God. That is why God finds fault. This is nothing new. Note Gen 37:4:

"But when his brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers, they hated him and could not speak peacefully to him."

There was nothing stopping Joseph's brother's from speaking peacefully to him other than their willingness not to. It was a moral choice on their part to not speak peacefully, and it is a moral choice on man's part to "not seek God." That is why God finds fault in man.

Good questions, by the way!!

[Everlasting]

Despise not the chastening of the Lord. For everything will be mete :
to everything and everyone, according to the will of God.



:nod :spew


Everlasting



Moon over Key Biscayne

:hug